Never buy stringed instruments. Incl: An actual eBay Response.

[SimpleAsCouldBe]

I'll let her email speak for itself.

The summary is that I want to save others from the pain I experienced.

If you put new strings on an instrument, this counts as an "alteration", which voids both ebay's buyer protection as well as any warranty the seller had.

Unbelievable. I'll never buy anything on ebay again, I feel so unethically treated.

...

Dear Eric,

Thank you for contacting eBay in regard to the Kentucky Mandolin (item #180655366862) that you recently purchased. After reviewing your email, I understand that you received the item from the seller, you restrung the item and when going to play the item it made a buzzing noise and noticed more damage to the item. I also understand that you feel we did not use the messages between the two of you as evidence and would like that concern addressed. As well as the sellers return policy not being taken into account. I know how disappointing it is to receive an item that was not described correctly. I would love to take a moment to explain why the case closed out the way it did.



While reviewing your account, I couldn’t help but notice that you have been with us for 7 years, and have dabbled in both buying and selling, and your feedback speaks for itself on how well you handled your account. Thank you !. One thing I did also notice is you don’t have a huge history with having to open and proceed with cases, so I wanted to spend an extra moment to explain what transpired in our investigation and how we came to the conclusion that we did.



After reviewing your case, I see you have altered or made changes to the item that you received, this information was received from your initial messages between you and the seller. Unfortunately, when alterations are made to an item, eBay Buyer Protection as well as the seller’s return policy is then voided. I regret to inform you that this claim will not close in your favor because of the alterations that have been made. You will also receive an automated email with this same information, but I wanted to take a few moments and explain our decision in further detail.




In summary, because the item was altered upon receiving the item, the buyer protection and seller’s return policy has been voided. I would encourage you to continue working with the seller to see if they might have other options for you. In the future please make sure that you reach out to the seller with any concerns you have before making or changing the condition of the item in order to protect yourself from a similar situation.



I want to thank you for your patience with this matter, you have done a wonderful job at communicating your concerns to both eBay as well as the seller, and I wish you the best of luck with this item!

Sincerely,

Becca D

eBay Customer Support

[mrmando]

That's bogus. Becca D doesn't understand anything about stringed instruments. You need to try to take this a little further up the eBay foodchain. No instrument maker I know of, including Saga, would issue a warranty that can be voided by changing strings.

What sort of damage did you find? If all that's going on is a buzz, then you probably just need a setup job, which is true of almost all inexpensive mandolins sold on eBay.

[Mandolin Mick]

That is absolutely ludicrous! I've been buying & selling on Ebay for years and have never heard of such a lame loophole!

[Paul Kotapish]

Yep that's ridiculous--and a good example of why I never buy anything on eBay. I know plenty of folks have had good experiences, but if I'm going to buy something--even over the Internet--I want a known person or institution on the other end of the deal.

[mrmando]

Strings are consumables, not an integral part of the instrument. Ask Becca: If she got the oil changed in her car, would she expect that to void the warranty?

[Eddie Sheehy]

restring it with old/worn strings... play their game...

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

To the OP: Is this your second mandolin purchase on eBay? I recall you mentioned an Eastman in an earlier post that also needed to be sent back. Did that return work out ok?

Agreed that the decision was ruled incorrectly, and I think you should escalate or appeal it to the management. The Customer Rep obviously misunderstood the nature of stringed instrument and made a bad call.

[Nonprophet]

I agree that it sure sounds bogus, but playing devil's advocate here--what would happen if the buyer immediately restrung with very heavy strings which then caused the top to sink or other damage? How would that be the seller's fault?


NP

[mrmando]

Well, when that happens, we can start a thread about it...

[barney 59]

It takes both buyers and sellers to make ebay work but if the pendulum is going to swing one way or the other it's going to swing in the sellers direction. Why? The seller is who is paying ebay. When you take money from someone that is who you are working for no matter how much you pretend that isn't so. (the real estate agent that becomes your best friend when you are buying is required to work in the best interest of the seller.)Why would it be different for ebay? I would try and take that upstairs to someone that maybe has a more reasonable sense of logic. Better, you could start a blitz campaign on the order of "United Breaks Guitars"--which you sort have already by posting here. They might settle to shut you up. I certainly will be more cautious myself from your experience.

[mrmando]

Actually, most of the recent changes to eBay policy have favored buyers.

[DerTiefster]

For an unwary and not well-clued-in buyer (and I'm not claiming that the O.P. falls into that category), a restringing could result in bridge shift or displacement of the nut. Either could cause a buzz not present when the item was shipped. Certainly it would appear to -me- that trying out the instrument as-delivered, without changing the strings, would be The Best Practice. Then if there were any issue such as a buzz, you could take it up with the seller and get his buy-in on the string change issue. He might insist that you return the instrument, for instance.

Strings are a consumable, but given the possibility for a buyer to "mess stuff up," I suspect that ebay will not back down concerning the "modification." You may have to reinstall the old strings to get around this procedural issue. Then they'd probably -have- to back down, as there would be no "change" to fuss about. This whole question should be of concern only to folks who are buying low-end instruments or who are indulging in "bottom-fishing" (an occasional weakness of mine). For mid-scale to upper-end instruments, the buzz issue should not be a sticking point.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually, most of the recent changes to eBay policy have favored buyers.

And that will eventually kill eBay. I stopped selling because of that. All I want is a level playing field.

[Eddie Sheehy]

But if you bought an instrument that didn't have all the strings - a common occurrence - you'd have to string it up to pitch to check for top-sinkage, buzzing, warped neck, bellying top etc. These are things that wouldn't be that noticeable without string tension...
I guess then put back on the old strings and list off the faults as if you noticed them straight off? I have to say that I've never had problem with a return where the Seller has a return policy. I have, however, had to force a return on Seller who had misrepresented an instrument, and EBAY/Paypal sided with me.
I'm not sure I understand how EBAY got involved in the OP's situation. Did the Seller dispute the state of the instrument because the Buyer restrung it? We kinda came in in the middle...

[Jeff Budz]

I think that just shipping an instrument to a different climate can require setup adjustments, and installing new strings (of a diff gauge) would too. Probably best to inspect for damage first, then play for a while on the old strings.

[catmandu2]

"Actually, most of the recent changes to eBay policy have favored buyers"

And that will eventually kill eBay. I stopped selling because of that. All I want is a level playing field.

Ditto for me as well.

[jim simpson]

Has the mandolin been looked at by a repair/set-up person to identify the actual issues with this mandolin?

I once ordered a used Tascam 4 track recorder on Ebay that turned out to need every belt and roller replaced as they had deteriorated into black goo. As the unit was represented as working, I contacted the seller with the news. A prompt refund and apology followed. I wanted to send it back on my dime but the seller insisted I keep it or discard it. As a project and after a lot of searching, I was able to locate and replace all of the bad items.

[rgray]

But if you bought an instrument that didn't have all the strings - a common occurrence - you'd have to string it up to pitch to check for top-sinkage, buzzing, warped neck, bellying top etc. These are things that wouldn't be that noticeable without string tension...,
I guess then put back on the old strings and list off the faults as if you noticed them straight off?

Makes you wonder if eBay would see the simple act of tuning to be an alteration. With this new knowledge of eBay interpretation, the best approach would seem to be admit nothing. At least until eBay changes their interpretation which would be hard to know unless they published specific guidelines on what can be done to a musical instrument as part of normal care without being considered an alteration.

I'm not sure I understand how EBAY got involved in the OP's situation. Did the Seller dispute the state of the instrument because the Buyer restrung it? We kinda came in in the middle...

I agree that not much is known. The original post stated "...,you restrung the item and when going to play the item it made a buzzing noise and noticed more damage to the item." What "more damage" was noticed? And could that damage have been sufficient grounds for return via either the Seller's or eBay's policies had not the OP said anything about restringing?

[Tom C]

I kind of agree with ebay. One needs to find these issues before making any changes. How do they know if you did something to cause the buzzing while changing strings? You should have just left the string part out.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Has the mandolin been looked at by a repair/set-up person to identify the actual issues with this mandolin?...

Excellent advice from Jim there, Eric. Since you let the cat out of the bag regarding having changed strings on it, your best counter argument to eBay may be this route, assuming that the luthier will agree that you putting new strings on it did not cause the issue(s), and/or can identify an unrelated root cause. If the luthier is an IMA Certified master luthier or has some other pertinent industry certification, even better, so that ebay or the seller can't as easily question your luthier's credentials and/or integrity.

[allenhopkins]

Lots of good discussion here, and I agree that the eBay rep's position that putting new strings on a mandolin constitutes an "alteration" is borderline ridiculous. Leaving aside the "fringe" possibilities -- you put on a set of giant cables that pulled the tailpiece off, e.g. -- this is no more an "alteration" than putting fuel in a gas tank "alters" the car.

But I did want to add one other perspective: this is eBay, after all, where in many cases the uninformed sell the unimproved to the unwary, "as is." Not that you shouldn't be able to get redress, if there's real misrepresentation, intentional or otherwise. But whenever I've purchased an instrument on eBay, and I've bought a half-dozen, I've realized that I was taking a risk. That's why I would never buy a major instrument from an auction site, unless (a) it was unique and unobtainable anywhere else, (b) I had the right of a trial period to inspect and play it, and (c) I had significant interaction with the seller beforehand. I've scored some really good deals on eBay, including a Howe-Orme mandolinetto for less than $200 (which the seller represented as needing repair, but which came out fine after a neck re-set), a Polk-A-Lay-Lee "surf uke," a Merrill aluminum bowl-back mandolin for $225, and an Oscar Schmidt Guitaro "mutant" Autoharp for $150. In a couple cases I would have taken exception to the way the seller described the instrument, but not significantly enough to warrant filing a complaint.

Going on eBay in search of a "bargain," you have to realize you're playing in a different ballpark from dealing with established on-line vendors, or your local dealer. There's a much wider latitude for mis-communication, misunderstanding, and, frankly, disappointment and "buyer remorse." Very attractive to browse the world-wide market for a wide variety of instruments, but also the risk potential increases significantly.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well, when that happens, we can start a thread about it...

...and you can be dam* sure that we will!!!

To the OP:

As Allen said and also in fact your Ms."Becca D" is dealing with hundreds of these cases and you seem reasonable and intelligent therefore susceptible to "logic" --- as contrasted to someone who is incorrigible and cannot write an English (or any language) sentence. (maybe the seller in this case?).

So, she has decided you will probably not appeal the case and she hopes therefore to write this one off quickly by giving you "any old answer" she can find hoping you will find it not worth the appeal. IMO.

I got screwed once with a guitar that "had no serious cracks on the top board" -- when it arrived it didn't have cracks because they had been cleated -- I took it to a local luthier and got a signed statement that there were repair cleats on the inside, I emailed an image of the report to eBay -- but because the report did not say "repair cleats TO FIX A CRACK -- the eBay moderator decided for the seller because he could not be sure what the cleats were for....anyway. I just do not buy instruments on eBay unless I can get the seller to communicate with me via real email before the auction ends.

Likewise as noted by one other above, do not volunteer ANY information to eBay they will merely use it against you -- everytime.

[Peter Kurtze]

"(item #180655366862)" . . . a Kentucky KM-630 for $291.50 seems like a pretty good deal, even with a buzz.

[Brent Hutto]

How would eBay know the difference between yourself, some buyer who was an expert luthier or some other buyer who doesn't even know the bridge isn't glued in place? They can't.

It seems to me you have recourse to whatever return privilege the seller offered in the ad. Absent any frank damage or clear misrepresentation that's all you really have to work with. If you buy a mandolin without an open "for any reason" return policy then buzzes and the like are just part of the burden you take on as the buyer. You're basically asking eBay to retroactively force the seller to offer more generous return terms than were advertised.

[David Newton]

Let me add, as an opinion from far left field, that the OP has 6 posts and opens a "conflict thread".
I wonder what the purpose is? Certainly he can't use a forum thread as "proof" that he is in the right?