"Catching" both strings in a course while picking

[johnmarkva]

I did a search and couldn't get this answered well enough. I have been working on right hand technique and noticed that on most fiddle tunes that I'm probably not catching both strings every time whether down or up.

To clarify - I'm playing 8th notes on the D string 0,2,4,5. I'll play down on the open D string and then up on D fret 2, down 4, up 5. Should I be making sure that both of the D strings are hit each time? Seems simple enough, but what is the thinking on this?

To my ear I'm not noticing a huge difference. Obviously the two strings are there for a reason...

Thanks

[Brent Hutto]

It's a fundamental of mandolin playing that your stroke has to be grooved to where it hits both strings every time without fail (except in certain advanced techniques where you play one string for a special effect). According to my mandolin teacher it's something that almost every beginner does not do consistently when they first start out. I was no exception myself, although I was probably hitting on all my downstrokes at least.

For me it didn't happen until I loosened up my wrist in order to let the pick naturally rotate slightly to a different angle on the up and down strokes. Not tilting it on purpose, it was just a side effect of a natural wrist motion once I quit holding it so stiffly that the pick was locked into an exaggerated downward tilt all the time.

For you it might be something totally different. I spent 5 minutes a couple times a day for two or three weeks just playing down, up, down, up, down, up real slowly and watching myself in the mirror to make sure my wrist was staying loose. After a while I could feel when it was tensing up again and also hear when I was missing one or the other string.

I'd also suggest if you can't hear the difference between hitting one string and hitting both strings you might be a little tentative with your stroke either way. But that's just a speculation as I definitely know nothing about how to teach somebody to play the mandolin...

P.S. FWIW, I watched my buddy Lou do pretty much the same thing as me when he started out a few months after me. He worked it out after a while but he started with exactly that same downward tilt and stiff wrist. Hope he didn't get infected with that from watching me!

[Ryan Zerby]

I also concentrate time each practice just on pick technique, and specifically on getting a loose wrist and loose grip. I use some of the open string picking exercises in Mike Marshall's "Finger Busters" and am listening for a double pick-click as I found it easier to determine if I was hitting both strings or just hitting one harder

Brent actually has a teacher, while I'm just some random guy in the same boat as you... so take it with a grain of salt.

[Dave Hanson]

I really can't imagine why anyone would think you only need to play one string only, if that was so, why have double courses ?

Strange question methinks.

Dave H

[Bertram Henze]

I wouldn't even know how to hit one string without hitting the other one. Don't pick the strings like you pick your teeth - those strings are supposed to be BANGED upon.

[Brent Hutto]

Bertram,

Here's what I was doing at first...

On the upstroke, if you have the pick tilted (i.e. on the follow-through of the downstroke your hand passed the string but the point of the pick stayed behind on or near the bottom string) and your wrist is stiff instead of reversing that motion you will "flick" the pick outward grabbing just that bottom string. In effect you can picking downward toward the soundboard on the downstrokes and then back outward away from the soundboard on the upstroke. It's an in-out stabbing motion rather than moving across the strings and letting the pick move through all strings the same.

[Ben Somerville]

Just make it feel natural. If you have to really concentrate on hitting both strings while you're playing, don't do it! If it sounds fine to hit only one string, and that's how your hand naturally moves, hit only one. BUT, if your technique starts to "fail you," (worse tone, less speed) it might serve you to switch to a different technique that allows you to hit both strings easily without having to really focus on it (once you're used to the technique of course).

[Bertram Henze]

I must admit that, since I came from violin playing where operating the bow with a loose wrist is essential, playing with a stiff wrist never occurred to me. So the sweeping pick motion is what I always took for granted.

[Brent Hutto]

Yeah, if a loose wrist came easily to me I'd have stuck with the viola a decade ago and probably be halfway decent at it by now.

[johnmarkva]

It is pretty obvious that if there are two strings they both should be struck as much as one can. I had a teacher suggesting I "drive" through each time to make sure I catch both strings on the down and the up stroke and while I am able to do it, it sometimes seems like it is overkill to concentrate on it that much. I have been doing some exercises and watching this and am noticing improvement.

Just thought I would get a little feedback on tips and ideas from the helpful folks here.

Thanks

[Brent Hutto]

JM,

At some point you'll have worked on it enough that it becomes "natural" and happen every time (just about). Shouldn't take too long, though.

[Ryan Zerby]

When I was playing with a tight grip and stiff wrist I couldn't dig too deep or I'd get hung up... initially I was playing with the tip to compensate... My pick would bounce off the first string and miss the second.

When I got looser, I was able to use more pick as well as a more inward stroke (closer to a rest stroke, even though I didn't actually hit the next course). The floppy grip just seemed to solve so many issues for me.

[draino]

In her method book, Marilynn Mair suggests striking only one string on the up-stroke. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the why of this. However, I will note that like the OP I do not notice much difference between my down and up strokes in terms of tone/volume, even though I rarely hit both strings on the up stroke (not by plan, I never paid attention until reading that in the Mair method, and then when I paid attention I noticed I was already only hitting one string on the up stroke).

And I'll edit one last time to note the following on Ms. Mair's website:

I do think I make it clear in my book that you always want to play through both strings on your down-stroke, but only hit one on your up-stroke when playing singe-note lines. In single-line tremolo it’s even more important to do this to create a smooth unsyncopated flow with your picking. Listen to your tremolo with both a 2-string upstroke and a 1-string upstroke and I think you’ll agree that the latter is more pleasing to the ear.

I really can't imagine why anyone would think you only need to play one string only, if that was so, why have double courses ?

Strange question methinks.

Dave H

[Cheryl Watson]

I think that when you are playing hard, especially Monroe style, "driving through" would be a good term. Monroe style has a lot of "rubbing" of the strings which is part of the "dirty" tone you get with Monroe picking. Playing more contemporary styles (and Chris Thile would be a great example) is a bit different. You don't want to hit your pick straight on with the strings with either style of playing--you want that slight angle with the pick--I prefer a slight clock-wise turn which is why I order picks with a right-hand bevel.

For picking single notes, if you try hitting both strings straight on with the pick and equally, you will get the sound of two quick notes. All my students do this at first and I have to correct their technique. You want the strings to sound together, yes, but I think that part of the secret is that on the downstroke, the bass side string (nearest you) is the lead string (the one you strike) and this sounds off the other string. With upstrokes, the treble side string is the lead string.

I hope this make sense to you all, I have had to really think about pick technique a lot (more than I want to) in order to help my students.

[Ryan Zerby]

This is what I'm hearing: An angled pick allows you to engage both strings at the same time (the leading edge is engaging the second string while the trailing edge is leaving the first), which lessens or eliminates the time between the sounding of the notes. It allows you to drive through the strings without hangup which results in a smoother stroke and a "wider" attack which can overlap with the attack of the second string. A flat approach gives more of a short "snap" of an attack and a pause between the soundings as the 1mm pick doesn't touch both strings at once.

If your pick is held flat, you can do a "rest stroke" on the lead string, resting against the second... but an angled pick will result in the pick resting against both strings.

My double pick-click was indicating that I was playing both strings, but playing too flat... the pick should only click when coming off the last string because the click of the first is dampened by engagement with the second string.

Is that more or less correct?

[Chris Keth]

Nothing "allows" you to strike both strings. It's simply a matter of follow through like hitting a baseball. If you're only hitting one string of a course, you're either pulling up off of the string as you pick or you are not following through and picking through the first string of a course. Both are easy no-nos to fix: simply don't do it.

Edit: Furthermore, if you are hearing two separate sounds when you pick one course, you're doing it too slow. Your pickstroke needs to be one single motion, that does not slow or stop when it hits the first string, that flows through both strings in a single fluid motion.

[Bertram Henze]

if you are hearing two separate sounds when you pick one course, you're doing it too slow.

...another phenomenon outside my personal experience - I have never heard two separate sounds, and in fact it never occurred to me to move the pick other than with maximum speed. I probably couldn't produce two sounds if I wanted to (and completely mess up the tune trying).
Ideally, the pick should be as fast as the string when it vibrates; then, the first string has done no more than 2 cycles before the pick strikes the second string, not enough for consistent tone perception (I am assuming a 440 Hz A and an elongation of approx. 1/2 mm here). A speedy pick is also good for tone.

[Bertram Henze]

Yeah, if a loose wrist came easily to me I'd have stuck with the viola a decade ago and probably be halfway decent at it by now.

This is such a frequently discussed issue that I decided to demonstrate what I do without using any magic.

[Brent Hutto]

Bertram,

For what it's worth, after I'd been messing around with the mandolin for a month or two I decided to take lessons. So I picked two potential teachers and had an hour-long Skype lesson with each, a few days apart.

Your little demonstration could pretty much have been the 15 minutes from one teacher and 25 minutes from the other, suggesting exactly the same change to my picking motion. I figured two out of two teachers choosing that as one of the first three or four things to mention when they met me was a pretty strong message to Get With The Program.