Foot tapping and timing-The story of Pinnochio

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

So I've tried. And tried. Bass players, guitarists, drummers, everyone tells me I need to tap my foot to the beat, And I try, left foot toe, right foot toe. Left foot heel, right foot heel. No matter what I do my foot taps at the same speed as the speed I'm playing. When my right hand speeds up, my foot matches it.

So I bought a metronome a few weeks ago. I tend to get ahead of it, too. I can't play at 60bpm, but at 84-90 I can keep time rather well. Try to put the foot together with the metronome and it gets even worse.

So I went to my instructor tonight, picked out a couple of Irish fiddle tunes and played them with a variety of methods.

toe tap and metronome- Awful.

Toe tap alone- Pretty bad.

Heel tap (either foot)- somewhat better.

Noting at all- Pretty much spot on through most of the choosen song.

So, even though everyone seems to yell at me for not tapping my foot, this instructor (who is good) tells me to ignore the foot for awhile. I have much better results when I do, I get less jumbled when picking basic tunes and I can make it through most tunes without issue as long as I have notation or know it by heart.

I'm assuming this is just fine and am going to run with it. But, does anyone have any tips or info on just how to get timing down? Some secret, some weird bit of info? This has become the biggest road block yet and one that has really brought me down. Even when I'm just chording and playing rhythm with a few other players, I get way ahead of it. It's killing me.

So whats your secret, your tips, etc for this, if any?

[Dan Hulse]

If you're not playing in time with others then you're not listening. I've seen some tap at tempos that are completely independent of the tune being played, and I've played with others who I know were theory wise technically superior to me, but were lousy listeners.
Listen to a tune until you can feel the beat. Sometimes it helps me to imagine walking or dancing (see recent posts on dancing).

[SternART]

When you're really in the groove.......in the pocket........you can just feel it. For me foot tapping helps. Playing with folks that already have a history playing together helps, if there are others with good timing playing......... & you're trying to listen & get in sync. you should feel it when it is right.......and it feels GOOD! Took me awhile, but I'm guilty too, I still sometimes speed up when I get excited.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm not boasting here,simply stating a fact,but i seem to have an in-build metronome. I've never tapped my foot (feet) or ever felt the need to. Unless a tune's quite complex or one that i haven't maybe heard before (or not many times),i have no trouble keeping my timing.
The 'New Lost City Ramblers' used to come over years back & they tapped their feet as part of the shown.I always got the impression that it wasn't so much that they needed to do it,but that it was a 'traditional', Old Timey thing going on. I don't mind watching a band / musician tapping their feet,as long as it doesn't escalate to foot 'stamping',something i've seen done - very off-putting !,
Ivan

[Jon Hall]

To tap or not to tap isn't a big deal but playing in rhythm with other musicians is essential. The way I teach my students is having them follow a chord chart with the beats on the chart. We slow it down to a tempo that they can play successfully and gradually speed up as their timing improves. The length of the learning curve depends on the student and how much effort they want to make.

[Markus]

I agree with Jon ... the foot tapping is beside the point, unless it's a useful aid towards staying in time.

Playing with a metronome, in my opinion, is an essential skill. Playing against a fixed beat is a necessary skill to play with others, tapping your foot is not. I find that Band-in-a-Box, playing with recordings, playing with backing tracks all serves the same function as the metronome - though I will say that it's easier to excuse slop with other instruments playing ... for myself, I hear my mistakes more when I play against the metronome vs. another fixed beat method.

Personally, I'd suggest keeping up with the metronome. It's a lot harder at first - but it gets much easier. I might be odd, but I will get a nice mellow beat going on the metronome and play John Lee Hooker-type riffs or fool around with various grooves against it. It took 6 months of regular use, but now I enjoy the metronome [my wife still does not].

Learning to play at a range of speeds is necessary to play in groups - I never seem to be the one who brings slow songs to the group, but I've gotten quite good at them despite.

My view is that foot tapping, for some folks, is a useful aid for playing in time. If you don't need that to play in time ... then do not tap your foot. If your timing is perfect, no one is going to care what your foot is doing or not doing. Your fingers are the part that needs to be in time.

[bobby bill]

There is nothing wrong with foot tapping per se. But there is no real reason to tap. Why have your brain tell your foot to stay in time so that your foot can tell your hands to stay in time? Why not just have your brain tell your hands to stay in time?

[Randi Gormley]

Does your body or head sway to the beat? You probably do something when you're playing, even just breathing differently, especially if you feel the beat internally without using your feet. No reason to wear glasses if your vision is 20/20. We have two people in our group with excellent timing and when things start to go south, we all just look at their feet and still our own. That's one thing you can do. And listening is crucial, if the person you're listening to has the beat nailed down. That kind of sensitivity to a beat is rare, but if you have it or can cultivate it, it's a gift that keeps giving.

[mandocrucian]

You don't tap your foot?
.....Maybe you can hold the beat/groove, or, maybe you can sorta keep it, and maybe you can't

Maybe it's there when you have no other distractions, but when other stuff is going on, it evaporates.

However, if you can keep the beat going with foot tapping (or beatboxing vocally) with the rhythm or your playing... Then you can definitely feel and hold the groove
= = = = = = =

You don't/won't hum/vocalize a melody (when asked to do so)?
....Maybe you can hear the tune mentally, maybe it's only sorta hearing it, and..... maybe it isn't in your ear at all.

Maybe it's there when you have no other distractions, but when other stuff is going on, it evaporates.

However, if you can vocalize the tune, then it is definitely in your head/ear.

Foot-tapping and vocalizing are a couple of diagnostic tools to determine whether these things are in your head. If you pass the test, then it is there.

If you don't (pass the test), maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. However, it's likely that even if it is in there (without doing the tapping/vocalizing), if you can physically do it, then those elements are ingrained much deeper. Physically foot-tapping the beat/groove/drumkit patter, or phycially vocalizing the tune puts it into you deeper and deeper and more solidly.

There a whole lot of applicable uses for tapping the foot, or vocalizing in the overall musical context and training, but since it goes beyond the mnimum requirements it's often considered superfluous. (Maybe they get it it, but maybe they don't.)

- Niles H

[SincereCorgi]

I agree with Niles on this– to my way of thinking, tapping your foot with good rhythm is just one more aspect of the limb-coordination required to use right and left hands at the same time. Drummers and organists have to use all four limbs, after all, and we shouldn't expect less from ourselves. Original post reminds me a little of those people who say they keep better time without a metronome– you wanna reply that's not how it works.

You might try working with a metronome a lot (and getting to like it). Try to keep it interesting by practicing with the metronome as the off-beat and your foot on the main beat, then playing around with those configurations. It's really hard and un-fun at first, and you might need to devise some tricks to get yourself into the groove, but it will pay off and feel like a fun challenge after a while.

[Mike Bunting]

You might want to start without an instrument at all, just clap your hands with the metronome.

[John Flynn]

I tap sometimes, others not. I have trouble with it when I actually think about it. It just has to happen spontaneously for me. I took a workshop once with John Carty, who you may know is an incredibly good Irish banjo player and fiddler whose command of rhythm is one of the many things to be admired about his playing. Playing seated, his feet both "danced" when he played, left and right, heel and toe. It was the wildest thing. It was like he was doing "Sean Nos" dancing to his own music. He did not seem to be doing it intentionally, it just seemed to happen. I have no doubt he could keep perfect time with his feet tied to the chair!

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I should add that I do practice with the metronome as part of my daily routine. Run scales to it, simple drills, practice 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes, DU, etc. I can do these at 80, but not at 60. I get ahead of myself, same thing happens if i try and watch the redlight. No patience.

What really gets me, is that I can tap my foot to a tune just fine. I can play along just fine (simple tune), try and put the two together and its a disaster.

But theres a lot of good info here, and after reading these posts a few times, I think i see my problem. I'm thinking about my foot. I shouldn't. It should be an involuntary representation of what my brain is hearing. Poor explanation, but after absorbing these posts and sitting in the dark with some new tunes and the metronome, I think I get it. We'll see what happens when I introduce the mando to it all, but I think I'm starting to get a grasp on it all. Much appreciated.

[Bertram Henze]

It should be an involuntary representation of what my brain is hearing. Poor explanation

Good explanation, I'll say!
The tapping isn't the source of timing, it is a by-product of it.
Being able to keep time when playing a tune fast but not slow indicates a lack of knowledge-by-heart of the tune. This is often the consequence of speeding up too soon while learning the tune. It should not be neccessary to concentrate on the ways and turns of the melody (which makes you speed up through easy parts and slow down in difficult parts without yourself noticing).

Test: can you sing the melody and tap along? If that works, you got to practise playing it on the mandolin until playing is equally comfortable and natural as singing. Then tapping will be no problem.

You might take a lead from this man.

[Rob Gerety]

I'm with Niles. Always a safe bet.
I tend to get my whole body moving with the beat. Of course then there are guys like Tony Rice - Mr. Stoneface.
On singing the melody. This is absolutely key. If you can't sing it you are probably going to get notes wrong especially when you are playing by ear.
There is nothing more satisfying then getting really tight with a group of players. Makes the hair stand up on the back of my head.

This brings to mind an experience I have had. I sometimes take lessons with a professional musician in which he helps us learn to arrange contra dance tunes in a band. Occasionally we get into adding unusual modern rhythms or grooves to the traditional melodies. I usually play guitar in this setting because I really enjoy playing back up when we are doing stuff like this. These rhythms are syncopated a great deal. If you can't keep almost perfect time with the others in the rhythm section it sound awful. It is not an easy thing to do for most people. But you can get better with practice.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Ok, so anyone want to throw some interesting, odd, good, whatever Metronome exercises at me? I'll do them and post videos if I can, just to make everyone here feel better about their own playing.

[Mike Bunting]

Set the metrnome at 60 and play only on the first click of every four.

click click click click, etc.
pick

Don't speed up the 'nome, spend some time on it. If you get bored, you are not
focussed.

Now play on the one and three "
Then on each beat.
Don't speed up the metronome, leave it at 60 for a month then move up to 80 bpm and repeat.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Sounds good, thanks. Beginning the process now.

[Rob Gerety]

Practice playing just slightly ahead of the beat for 8 measures, then slightly behind the beat for 8 measures, then hit it head on for 8 measures. Repeat. Over and over.

Practice playing with the metronome clicking only one per measure and see if you can stay on beat.

[Mike Bunting]

Practice playing just slightly ahead of the beat for 8 measures, then slightly behind the beat for 8 measures, then hit it head on for 8 measures. Repeat. Over and over.

Practice playing with the metronome clicking only one per measure and see if you can stay on beat.

That may be a little advanced at this stage for someone who says they can't tap their toe in time to the music.

[Rob Gerety]

Something to shoot for.

[Markus]

One things that I internalized as a kid using a metronome, but has been reminded to me recently and I've found helpful now and then is to count out loud before starting playing, perhaps a couple measures.

It sounds like it shouldn't do anything, but some times I find it really helpful. It's something I do when I record [count off two measures, in case I want to multitrack] - and it's something I've started to do on songs I'm in the early stages with.

One Two Three Four [a couple of times out loud]

Seems simple, but I swear it helps.

[obviously 3/4 6/8 etc you count appropriately]

---

I like Mike's metronome ideas.

I found the metronome to be one of the more striking `breakthrough' moments in music learning. I had not used one in decades [since high school jazz band playing alto] ... and found it difficult to synch with. Infuriatingly so at times.

After a few months, I was practicing scales with the metronome while watching some nature show on TV. There was spectacular tiger footage, and I started noodling along to the metronome. The tiger footage ended, and I realized I was playing a funky john lee hooker-like riff along to the metronome beating on the 1 and 3 beats of a 4/4 measure.

The next day, the metronome and I were friends.

A metronome is like playing with a drummer, there's a period where you are each on your own versions of the beat [the metronome doesn't just claim to have perfect time though - it actually does ]. After time, it almost magically [at least for me] became internalized and it became this frustrating [shows every imperfection] but somewhat enjoyable tool.

There's times when I put it on just to groove along with it. It's a far cry from some nice drum loop, but it's amazing how much just a simple metronome clicking can provide as as platform to solo over. It sure sounds better when I use Band-in-a-Box, but my every flaw is exposed with the metronome.

Not always pretty, but once you get comfortable with one it's a wonderful tool for learning songs and getting them up to speed - if you record every week what BPM you are at, you can track progress easily and over the course of months really see things come along.

When you play with others, provided they have good timing, that internalized metronome is one heck of a tool.

Take it slow, like everyone before you - you will get there. Do it right, then you only have to do it once.

I hope I don't come off as belonging to the Cult of the Holy Metronome, but it's a valuable tool to `keep you honest' so to speak. Best of all, there's more ideas beyond what Niles, Mike and Rob have suggested you can do when the time comes.

[mandocrucian]

Foot Percussion (and more)

[John McGann]

This might help. Time isn't everything, it's the only thing (tied for first with everything else)

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Ok, Ive been working on this for a couple weeks now. It's been a mixed bag as under 80 beats I still cant stay on to save my life but from 80-96 I can hang right with it with no issues. But the real kicker, after struggling non stop for a few days with the metronome my instructor had me turn it off, flipped open an Irish fiddle tunes book and had me play a tune. My timing, according to him, was perfect. And the song sounded good to me so I'm assuming he's right.

Now, is this a direct result of running all these metronome exercises? I still loathe the metronome and do battle with it daily, but my playing without it is advancing, is there a link there? I'm going to keep at it I guess and I'm going to flip for that McGann book here as soon as I can, I'm just wondering how being miserable at the metronome is making me better with out it. Shear hatred maybe?