timid

[billkilpatrick]

wondering just how hard one should hit the strings - wondering if i'm too timid. instead of playing soft and working up to a serious level of tone and volume i should really pound that thing and work down.

[Rob Gerety]

hit it pretty darn hard - I had the same thing going on in my playing, took a couple of lessons with a really good all around mando and guitar player and one of the first things I noticed was that he hit the string a lot harder than I did. Not bashing - but almost. Plus, I find when I sit in a jam session I have to hit pretty hard to be heard - so if I practice by playing softly I'm not able to play smoothly in the jam session environment because I haven't been practicing at that level of intensity. Same thing with speed. Slow when learning a new tune or new skill of course - but once I have a tune down pretty well I need to try to gradually work it up to performance speed and spend time practicing at that speed. Otherwise I can't keep up in a jam.

[Jesse Harmon]

Wondered about that my self. Esp on the lower strings. Been practicing ffCp and in the first position wondered if it was just me on the fretting finger or if I should really pick stronger.

[Jim Garber]

Bill (and others): your ear will tell you. A lot also depends on your particular instrument. Some respond better to being played strongly and others prefer to have their song coaxed out of them gently. The better mandolins respond across the range ppp to fff.

[billkilpatrick]

Bill (and others): your ear will tell you. A lot also depends on your particular instrument. Some respond better to being played strongly and others prefer to have their song coaxed out of them gently. The better mandolins respond across the range ppp to fff.

of course - if it sounds good, i'll do it. we're enjoying some good weather here - sorry guys - and playing outside makes my mandolin sound pretty thin and weedy. a firmer approach seems right but it opens up a whole new can of worms in terms of technique - e.g.: white knuckles, death grip on the pick, accuracy of play, etc..

what is "ppp" and "fff" - something you real musicians say?

[Josh Kaplan]

They're dynamic markings--in Italian!

p = piano = soft
pp = pianissimo = very soft
ppp = pianissimo possibile = as soft as possible

f = forte = loud
ff = fortissimo = very loud
etc.

[MikeEdgerton]

My mandolin teacher years ago told me to whip it like a mule. I think it all depends on the style you play.

[Jim Garber]

what is "ppp" and "fff" - something you real musicians say?

Then there is pppfff -- the sound when your inflatble mandolin springs a leak.

[JeffD]

Then there is pppfff -- the sound when your inflatble mandolin springs a leak.

[Chip Booth]

[billkilpatrick]

for those on facebook, here's a video of mike compton playing "gospel plow." (there may be a way to transfer the video here directly but i don't know how.) what prompted me to think maybe i'm not playing hard enough was watching him play this tune - he gets his whole arm involved; right hand looks brisk and aggressive:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/v...09977&comments

[SincereCorgi]

wondering just how hard one should hit the strings - wondering if i'm too timid. instead of playing soft and working up to a serious level of tone and volume i should really pound that thing and work down.

Learning to play loud with good tone is important. My best clarinet teacher's recommendation was to save your extremely loud practice for the last ten minutes or so of your workout, the logic being that if people showed up to complain you could just say: "Oh, don't worry, I'm all done for the night anyway."

[mandocrucian]

One of the "problems" (limitation? failings??) of many, many mandolin players is that they really only develop or have 2 or 3 "sounds."

This whole discussion (as are many others) is essentially the same as threads such as: "Jig Pick Direction: DUD DUD or DUD UDU or DDU DDU?" Only now, the variable happens to be volume.

For all the "talk" about mandolin being "all about the right hand", remarkably little effort is actually devoted to developing versatility of the plectrum hand. It's not just about aquistion of speed (alone). Hell, any idiot can drive a car 120 mph down a empty straight stretch of interstate highway. But can you drive in traffic, or on a curvy road, or on an old patched-up bumpy 2-lane blacktop?

So it makes sense to practice scales, or tunes, or drills in various ways and combinations of ways:

play soft
play medium
play loud
play super loud (with buzzing or distortion)
- - - - - -
play close to the bridge
play over the sweet spot
play over the fretboard (hollow sound)

play with all downstrokes
play with all upstrokes
play Du Du Du DU
play Ud Ud Ud Ud
play with slurring patterns
play with (varieties/speeds of) tremolo

Play with the hand lightly resting on the bridge
play with the free hand
play with intentional RH palm muting

Use the point of the pick
Use the round of the pick
Use the side of the pick

Play with a light pick
Play with a medium pick
Play with a heavy pick

Play sitting down
Play standing up
Play with a strap
Play without a strap

Play with the loose open-fist grip
Play with the 2-finger grip
Play holding the pick between the thumb and middle finger (handy for adding in artificial harmonics)

Hit the string flat-on
Hit the string with an angle of the pick
Hit the string with the reverse-angle of the pick
Hit the strings with the edge of the pick
Dive-bomb/slap the string from above

Use circular/ovoid hand/pick motion
Use pendulum hand/arm motion
Use figure-8 hand/pick motion

So, practice soft, medium and loud with all of the other variables
Practice pick direction drills with all the other variables
etc. etc. etc.

When you get a handle on some of these variables, the trick is to be able to fluidly change from one to another. e.g. One measure loud follwed by one measure soft. One measure close to the bridge followed by a measure over the fretboard. e.g. One measure loud & close the the bridge followed by one measure soft over the fretboard. One measure soft with Dudu followed by one measure super-loud with DDDD. Now reverse the order of the "bits" - soft to loud, or over thre fretboard to close to the bridge, etc.

This is what classical violin students do from the early stages. It's just not the notes of the etude, but the 20+ different bowings, articulations, dynamics or bow positions (close/far from bridge; end of bow, middle of bow, all of the bow......) that are at the bottom of the page.

Obviously, how many sonic variations one works on has a lot to do with individual playing level. A beginner only has the capacity to work on a few the simpler ones, say "soft vs. loud." It's not just about educating your hands to do the task, but to wire your ear to the sound(s) so that the hands respond to the aural thought.

Niles H

[Markus]

Awesome Niles, I love how complete you are ... extremely helpful.

After playing in a kitchen table jam yesterday, I was reminded how much can be done with dynamics and technique ... that I'm happy that sometimes I practice quiet [but intense], loud [and loose] and varied attacks/volumes for fiddle tunes - I used everything I had. This list gives me more to work on, always a good thing.

[AlanN]

Tony Rice is one who varies the attack, some along the Niles description above. Even within one solo, he does peaks and valleys in his playing. Doyle Lawson too, on some of his tremble.

[swampy]

I like the "whip it like a mule" anaolgy, because in order to get a nice "whip" you have to remain loose. You don't want to dig into it too much, or your tone, timing, and even volume will all suffer. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but when I really need to push it, I have to make a concious effort to actually loosen up my wrist. It's about playing across the strings.

[MOJOHAND40]

JMO...Let me start by saying I've obviously never heard you play, so of course I can't answer your question..
anyway..speaking from a Bluegrass perspective, I can make the following observation based on what I've seen and heard. Most newer to intermediate mandolin players I've jammed with or watched at jams play way too softly or "timidly" on breaks (and often too loud on chops..
I used to do the same thing, and really only ofter watching much better players did I get to learn to really "project" during a break. Of course you got to practice on your own the dynamics of playing with "oomph!" .
Personally I think that when I'm taking a break with confidence, commitment and really hitting those strings and sounding like I mean it, a simple break that is really basic and really just the melody sounds great, compared to a more flashy, notey break with lots of runs that I'm playing not loud enough and weakly.
OF course the GOAL is to be able to play those intricate passages with confidence, commitment and really hitting those strings and sounding like I mean it, which means I need to practice that aspect more.
but again, sometime just playing with some "Oomph" and purpose really can make a simple song sound good (and make little goofs and clams sound passable! )