1796 Giovanni Battista Fabricatore mandolin

[etbarbaric]

To answer my own query...

I would say that best case the strength of the bar is only as good as the strength of the glue joint between the bar and the top. If you repair the bar, your glue joint will presumably be no different (stronger or weaker).

With that observation, I guess I'd do what I could to repair and keep the bars.

Best,

Eric

[Dobe]

Thank you Marijan & Margriet so much for this thread. Looking forward to following it. True museum pieces that will play again someday !

[Margriet]

Thank you Dobe, for telling that you like it. And thanks to Marijan, Eric and Alex.
I love this thread and the way people are involved, taking care, with respect for the instrument and it's history.
Good to know that more people are reading and watching !

Margriet

[Marijan]

Hi Marijan,

No problem at all. I enjoy these conversations very much (as I know Alex and others do). I'll look around for the details of the bridge and nut measurements that we used on my Fabricatore. They were taken from Alex' 1794 example which had its original nut and bridge.

As to the bar, I would approach it slightly differently. Unlike a violin top that is carved to a rather fixed shape, these mandolins had very thin (and fairly uniformly) thicknessed tops. This means that they are extremely flexible in a longitudinal direction (across the short dimension of the top). If the bars were off, you would be able to bend the spruce top back and forth easily with your hands (along the grain, not across). This flexibility seems alarming at first, but it is perfectly normal. In most cases, the top is designed to take its shape from the bars. You will notice that these bigger (taller) bars are on either side of the sound hole... no doubt to reinforce the top where it is missing a large chunk of wood!

The bar is there not only to reinforce, but also to "tension", or stiffen, and give the top its shape. In other words, the bar _intensionally_ has a curved "face" that is glued to the underside of the table, and that curve should not be removed. The idea is for the flexible top to conform to this curve once the bar is glued in place. The top may well be flat now, but it likely was initially slightly convex (curved outward in a longitudinal dimension). This curve not only helps the top resist the downward pressures it must, but it also "tensions" the top to make it stiffer, which helps in sound production. Think of the bar as a little wooden spring. Of course, this is also why the ends of these bars typically come loose (or split) over time, since they are under tension.

That said, depending on the glue joint, you may well want to remove the bar, reglue the split, and then reglue the bar to the top. If you look back at the thread about my 1793 Fabricatore, you'll see that one of the bars on my instrument had an unfortunate knot at the end, which had long since popped out due to the tension (in almost an identical location to your split!) Larry chose to fabricate a new bar in that case since material was actually missing from the bar. In any case, the curve of the bar should be retained, IMHO.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

Best,

Eric

ps - What does your neck block look like from the inside? :-)

Sorry for delayed replies. I usually put myself behind the computer desk when I came from the workshop, toward the evening, have time to check mails and other things, perhaps send a reply or two, and than time comes when my dear wife goes in bad. And time zone is not ideal either for real time communication with all of you. So thanks for following.

Most valuable informations Eric. Thank you very much. It absolutely makes sense. Knowing that, I`ll remove two lower bars, fix the cracks, clean the gluing surface and re glue those again. It`s unlikely that another possible failure will occur on the repair area.
Thanks for taking time to look for the bridge/nut files, on advance.

Eric provided a bunch of great photographs, but few more can`t hurt. I`ll make drawings - sketches of the construction parts and instrument as a whole, during the restoration process, which will include all measurements I`d be able to measure on opened instrument. Scans will be available on request.
Photographs of the interior. Water marked paper as Eric reported on his Fabricatore, I wonder is it similar one. Neck nail as suggested, interesting piece of lower block, which had to be re glued partially. And interior bracing.



Best!
Marijan

[Marijan]

I did some basic work on construction late yesterday and today after my bass bar was glued in latest violin I work on.

I removed upper sound hole bar and small reinforcement bar below the neck block. There was a crack on the center of the plate running from the sound hole toward the neck to the start of the plate ornamentation. It was slightly opened at the sound-hole position so I made narrow patch bad along the crack, and placed the patch in it. After the trimming, bars where inspected, cleaned and re glued on its position, but just to the point of the main crack on the right side above the hole, so the crack could be manipulated during repair.

It was taken care for the crack on the left edge, the whole piece actually, which was almost broken of long time ago. Crack was cleaned, and re glued.



Lower block was loose on one side. I opened it a little more and re glued it. There is a crack going over all four pin holes. That will be addressed later with hardwood patch, small spiral bushings will be inserted to the pin holes just in case.



Best,
Marijan

[Marijan]

One grain insert was made out of the spruce of similar age the instrument is. It was prepared for main top crack on the right side above the sound hole. Closing with pressure is impossible, due to the age of the crack, top was stabilized in this position.
Crack was cleaned and dry clamped at the hole to ensure alignment, while inserting wood.
Top and the unglued part of the upper bar where not glued at this pint. Just a crack to the point where inlay starts.
The rest of the crack will be closed from inside and reinforced with cleat, after the last 10mm of the bar is glued with the top.

Ebony frets where removed to make crack repair and clamping easier. Complete ones will be put back in it`s position (all came off without any breakage) later, broken ones will be replaced with new ebony frets.



Best,
Marijan

[etbarbaric]

Hi Marijan,

Thanks for sharing your wonderful photos. It looks like you are doing a careful and excellent job. I'm short on time today, but let me just add a couple comments.

My own Fabricatore required a "spline" inserted above the sound hole... very close to the position of the crack in your instrument. This looks like the right approach to me in cases where the crack can not be easily closed.

Yes! That (partial) watermark does look very similar to the one we found inside my instrument. For those just joining us, the Fabricatore family also apparently were early paper makers. Many of their instruments (even their guitars) were coated on the inside with paper. We didn't find this watermark in any catalogs (yes, there are such things), but Larry made a careful trace of it... I'll have to dig it up!

Best,

Eric

[etbarbaric]

Here is the watermark we found in the 1793 Fabricatore mandolin. Though complete, the watermark was fairly faint, so Larry made a "vague and conjectural" sketch of what he could see. To me it looks like a snail sitting on a canon... I'd be very interested if anyone turns up a reference to this watermark. It seems highly likely that the Fabricatores would use their own paper inside their instruments, but it would be nice to "prove" that conjecture.

Best,

Eric

[Marijan]

Here is the watermark we found in the 1793 Fabricatore mandolin. Though complete, the watermark was fairly faint, so Larry made a "vague and conjectural" sketch of what he could see. To me it looks like a snail sitting on a canon... I'd be very interested if anyone turns up a reference to this watermark. It seems highly likely that the Fabricatores would use their own paper inside their instruments, but it would be nice to "prove" that conjecture.

Best,

Eric

Funny thing, human brain and it`t perception. I`d never see snail on the canon by myself. First impression to me was some kind of musketeer head with feather on the heat. I`ll try to get better image on my mandolin. Problem is that the only full size mark is directly under the label.

Best,
Marijan

[Marijan]

Completing main crack repair.

Eric, in violin making heated sand bags are used frequently to bent the wood to desired shape. Step by step process, which can take weeks. But here, you cant do that. You could close the gape this way on the end of the crack, near the edge, but you would not reach closing at the rosette point. If you look the line of the purfling on the edge on photographs, you will see that with splint, the crack is closed in perfect shape to add purfling without any bumps, and the same goes for the rosette area. This definitely is correct way to address this kind of damage.

Final tush up will be made after light top cleaning. Problem with old cracks like this one, which was open for many years, probably decades is wear on the the edges of the crack. You could widen the crack, by cutting some original wood out, to get it perfectly even, but I am reluctant to do that, in particularly on visible part of the instrument. Left side of the crack, as you are looking at the photo has more wear than right side.
But it came out nicely. Just stained to the level or two under the final scale, with natural dye for now.



Next repair, missing edge. Purfling and ivory edge platform.

Best,
Marijan

[etbarbaric]

Thanks Marijan,

Very nice (and virtually invisible) repair! The crack above the soundhole on my instrument was slightly more central. As you can see in the old 1793 Fabricatore thread, it was likewise stained to be virtually invisible.

Best,

Eric

[etbarbaric]

Incidentally, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the barring differences between the 1793 and 1796 G. B. Fabricatore mandolins.... :-)

[Marijan]

Incidentally, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the barring differences between the 1793 and 1796 G. B. Fabricatore mandolins.... :-)

Indeed! I missed that. I should have your photos on hand all the time to see that.
There is an old say here saying that you can fail to see the tree from the wood, or is it vice versa? Didn`t see the bars from the bracing here.

I looked carefully if there are any signs that could indicate the change of the bracing system on my top during it`s life time, but there are no such signs, it was constructed that way by the maker.

Your upper bar is tilted quite a lot and it covers a god portion of the top area along the grain. My upper bars are tilted gradually. First one slightly and one above a little more.
Any thoughts about the reasons for such a change in such a short period of time?

Thanks Eric.

Best,
Marijan

Edit: Nope, at the second look, area that is covered on my top is much larger, and upper bracing tilt looks the same like one on yours photo.

[Margriet]

Incidentally, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the barring differences between the 1793 and 1796 G. B. Fabricatore mandolins.... :-)

What a speed in this thread !
Though, very very nice !

Regarding the restoration I did the first step: made an appointment with my dentist, to try an X-Ray ! We do not know yet if this will be possible, in a technical way. We will see, the dentist was laughing, he likes to try it.

This is really the first step; I need to be sure that the joint is strong enough, before continuing.
I took care of the leather of the case, putting oil on. It was very dry. And watching if some woodworm in the case is dead or still alive.

Meanwhile I watch this thread with great interest. Such detailed and clear photos you make, Marijan!


Margriet

[etbarbaric]

"Get thee to a Dentist!" Great idea.... I was contemplating a Veterinarian (animal doctor)... :-)

Any thoughts about the reasons for such a change in such a short period of time?

It is difficult to say, of course. With three (and maybe four) examples from the same maker in our hands, we may be able to start drawing some conclusions over time (1793, 1794, 1796). One thing is for certain, mandolin design was in fairly constant flux, and these late 18th-century instruments represent something of a pinnacle of design for the instrument. They are larger, deeper, and heavier than those instruments made in the 1770s... and much bigger than the earliest Neapolitan examples. They bulge... almost muscularly. Ornament has gotten a little silly (my presumed Fabricatore actually has a piece of mirrored glass embedded in the peghead!). Maybe playing a 1770s mandolin in the 1790s was much like being seen in public with last year's iPad... or last month's mobile phone... :-)

The limited stringing information we have is (I think) from the 1770s. It is hard to say much definitive but it is quite possible that (as with most things) string tensions, and perhaps pitch standards were rising. Maybe string technology was changing too. I am unsure of what evidence we have for the advent of steel stringing on Neapolitan mandolins. Alex? Eugene?

After all, it would only be a few years later before old violins everywhere would start having their necks replaced and lengthened, bridges replaced, fingerboards lengthened, neck angles increased, sound posts and bass bars enlarged, etc. It's almost 1800.... the Iron Age of music... The harpsichords and lutes are seen but not heard. In the background you can hear the sounds of wood-frame square pianos collapsing under the increased tension of steel strings ("Snap.... CAVOOOOOM!"). Bach has been dead for almost 50 years... it is almost time to move on... drama... passion... volume... SOUND!!! This little instrument was born on the precipice... the brink of a time of incredible musical change.... It represents the best technology of its day, and yet it is about to become obsolete. The wire-strung Neapolitan mandolin was about to almost vanish for a few decades... only to emerge reborn and reformed...

Listen to Beethoven's First Symphony (1795?) ... and compare it to the Ninth (1824). It has always amazed me that they were written by the same man.

(Oh, man... I just got major goosebumps hearing Beethoven in my head... :-))

OK... so maybe I get a little carried away... apologies...

Best,

Eric

[etbarbaric]

One more data point. I won't speak for Alex, but his book "De Mandoline en de Gitaar: Door de Eeuwen Heen" shows his 1794 Fabricatore has having the double-barred arrangement, with the lower bar at an angle and the bar closest to the sound hole drawn as horizontal. There is a sketch of the barring only, but it seems mostly similar to the 1796 instrument. Unfortunately, I do not speak Dutch, so I am limited to looking at the pictures.

Bset,

Eric

[Marijan]

What a speed in this thread !
Though, very very nice !

Regarding the restoration I did the first step: made an appointment with my dentist, to try an X-Ray ! We do not know yet if this will be possible, in a technical way. We will see, the dentist was laughing, he likes to try it.

This is really the first step; I need to be sure that the joint is strong enough, before continuing.
I took care of the leather of the case, putting oil on. It was very dry. And watching if some woodworm in the case is dead or still alive.

Meanwhile I watch this thread with great interest. Such detailed and clear photos you make, Marijan!


Margriet

I had no real intention to speed or rush things, Margriet. I just hate to see instrument like this, hanging around the workshop. Wait till I get to the edges, linings, purflings, inlay.... You will mis my posts .
I am behind my bench for a nice portion of the day, and there are always moments, when glue need to harden, or varnish to dry... Sometimes I just need a break of the usual routine. Those are the moment I do thing or two on mandolin.
It this stage of restoration, when construction of the instrument is taken care for, the main thing is to decide what kind of repair to chose for individual crack, and in particularly to arrange appropriate clamping systems, for each and every crack. That is why I do post pictures of actual repair process from time to time. I hope it`s not to detailed or boring. If I go in details too much just let me know please, any of you. I am aware that this is not luthier forum.

But, until someone stops me:



This is the way I chose for two top cracks, that where slightly over the limit, that would make me feel comfortable by just pressure closing and cleating them. I used line patch, made out of 180 years spruce, came out of the old drawer bottom.

Thanks for kindness Margriet and god luck at the dentist. This little summarize my attitude toward this medical field. I`ll take urgency.

Best,
Marijan

[etbarbaric]

Very nice Marijan. I, for one, will not stop you! Having this level of detail is very valuable, both from an interest standpoint, and also as food for thought for those who would contemplate restoration at this level.

After 215 years this lucky little instrument has clearly found its way into the right hands.

Best,

Eric

[Marijan]

Listen to Beethoven's First Symphony (1795?) ... and compare it to the Ninth (1824). It has always amazed me that they were written by the same man.

(Oh, man... I just got major goosebumps hearing Beethoven in my head... :-))

OK... so maybe I get a little carried away... apologies...

Best,

Eric

I enjoy and found your posting most informative and helpful at the same time, so no apologies needed.
My older daughter read a poem I wrote some 30 year ago (and not just one, she found a whole notebook - paper one). I tied to compare it to one I wrote for my wifes birthday a year ago. Hmmmm...

I am probably going to order the book Alex wrote. Here are two photographs of how the bars where bent. These are two lower (wide) ones. I removed and repaired them. There was almost no pressure needed to close the cracks, which where very shallow. Wood is solid, healthy and still flexible, so bars will go back on plates.



Upper bar was almost flat, just a slight curve.

Edit: bars are positioned in between two wooden blocks, so you can see only a portion looking out of the fixture, and not the full height.

Best,
Marijan

[etbarbaric]

Great photos! That amount of curvature is more or less exactly what I would expect to see. Of course the curve will likely flatten out a little as the bars are put under tension when glued to the table.

Best,

Eric

ps - Thinking of my own children, I suddenly find a need to go and re-hide my old notes and poems! :-)

[Margriet]

I had no real intention to speed or rush things, Margriet. I hope it`s not to detailed or boring. If I go in details too much just let me know please, any of you. I am aware that this is not luthier forum.
But, until someone stops me:

Marijan

Oh , please go on Marijan, I love it ! I only said this because Eric was surprised that nobody noticed the difference between the barring differences.... not everyone is able to look every day on the forum and to integrate all the information.
Therefore it is very good that it is on the forum, where can you look it over and over and read it back.

The veterinarian, yes, that would have been a good option as well! I did not think about it. Ours is playing guitar....now I have to wait until the 16th. Maybe I will try the vet. Once I know more, I will post. Meanwhile I will try to know more of the story of the instrument, by asking the seller, if he knows something, how it has come in Prague, former owner etc. The seller does not really speak english well......so I need to have it translated. Until later.

Margriet

[James Sanford]

I am loving this thread. Any photos and information you share is great. Never too many.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Marijan,

I have e-mailed you the details of Alex' bridge including two photos and some measurements. Please let me know if you don't receive them.

Best,

Eric

[Marijan]

Hello Eric, thank you very much for sending pictures and measurement, and to Alex for providing them. Let me know please if you got my private mail.

Thanks James and Margriet. Tempo will drop a little in next days. I`m working on the neck and scroll for violin which has to be finished till the and of April for Frankfurt fair. There will not be so much room for mandolin.

Best,
Marijan

[deloid]

Marijan is a good friend of mine but even so, I can say without bias that these images and his approach shows his extraordinary talent and eye for stringed instruments. Knowing how well he makes his violins (and photographs them) leaves me expecting this level of artistry. What I find odd is that I joined this forum last November to learn more about these instruments from an obviously good group of people only to find my friend posting and doing things that I want to do.
Great work my friend!
Dean