Tunings, tiples, and tantrums

[Dr H]

Hi there! I'm really new here, so I hope this is the proper forum for this post. If not, perhaps a kindly moderator will move it to a more appropriate location and let me know? There seems to be a lot of expertise and experience hanging around these fora, so I'm hoping someone can calm my tamtrum, or at least straignten out my confusion.

For the past several years I have been acquiring a collection of fretted instruments a bit outside the core guitar-banjo-mandolin group, and actually learning to play some of them well enough that I'm not embarassed to take them out in public. Recently I acquired a Colombian Tiple, and was once again faced with a situation which is becoming one of my pet peeves: finding definitive information on how to tune the damned thing.

There are plenty of soruces on the web and in the library that list all manner of stringed instruments and give the pitch letter names of their basic tunings. But most of these make no reference -- or ambiguous reference -- as to what octave a particualr pitch may reside in. Sometimes this information may be deduced from the the size of the instrument, or the guage of the strings, but in other times it's far from clear. If you are lucky enough to find a source that gives a tuning with octaves, its' a toss up as to which one of a half-dozen arcane systems of octave notation is going to be used.

Having been trained as an engineer myself, I personally prefer the so-called "scientific" form of octave notation: Middle-C on the piano = C4, an octave lower is C3, an octave higher is C5, and so on. But I guess I'm whistling in the dark waiting for musicians and musicologists to adopt that system universally.

Which brings me back to my new tiple. The available information on this instrument seems to be more ambiguous than most. First off, there are at least a half-dozen significantly different instruments that have "tiple" as part of their name, with 4, 5, 9, 10, 12 or some other number of strings. Since most sources just say "tiple" the first bit of detective work necessary is to figure out what kind of tiple they're talking about.

Once I drilled down into the various sources one of the few things most of them seemed to agree on was that my tiple -- the "Tiple Colombiano" or "Colombian Tiple" usually (but not always) has 12-strings, arranged in four courses of three-strings each. OK, that basically describes my instrument, but from there things get a little dicier.

All sources agree that on the Colombian Tiple the middle string of the three in some of the courses is tuned an octave lower than the other strings in the course. How many courses this occurs with is apparently either variable or in dispute: some sources say it occurs in just the lower two courses; some say in the lower three courses, and one says it occurs in all four courses.
The majority of sources say that three courses have a lower-octave string in the middle, so I'm going with that.

Problem is, when my tiple arrived all of the strings in the top two courses were the same guage, implying that they were to be tuned in unison. Moreover, a much lighter guage was used for the second course than for the top course, implying some sort of re-entrant tuning -- but none of the sources I viewed mentioned Colombian tiples using re-entrant tuning.

I am, I suppose, faced with the possibility that my tiple was incorrectly strung at the factory, and I have contacted them, but received no reply yet.

Once the stringing issue is resolved (assuming that it is resolved), I still have ambiguous and conflicting information concerning tuning. So far, I have uncovered at least three different "standard" tunings, usually rendered (low-to-high) as:

dDd-gGg-bBb-EEE

cCc-eEe-aAa-dDd

aAa-dDd-f#F#f#-bBb (called "ukulele tuning")

I'm OK with this: plenty of instruments have more than one common variant tuning, and which one chosen depends on the music being played and what context it's being played in. What I'm tearing my hair out over is what octaves these pitches belong in.

For now, I'm thinking of going with the first tuning:

dDd-gGg-bBb-EEE

OK, one source says that the courses are tuned an octave higher than the first four strings of the guitar. I don't believe this source: that would put the first course up to the mandolin "E", which seems ridiculously high-pitched for an instrument with an almost 22-inch scale.

Most other sources state some variant of the ambiguous statement: "the four sets of three steel strings are tuned to the same pitches as the treble strings of the guitar, with the middle string of the three lowest sets tuned an octave lower."

What is not clear here is which of the strings in the courses are tuned to "the treble strings of the guitar." Basically, I see two possibilities:

1) If the outer strings of the course are tuned to guitar pitch, then tuning the middle string "an octave lower" would put the middle D string down to the bass-guitar D -- which seems ridiculously low for such a small instrument.

2) If it is the middle string of each course that is tuned to the guitar pitch, and the outer strings of each course are tuned an octave higher, that would put the outer strings on the "B" course up to the B above middle-C, a full octave above the guitar B-string. while not as outrageous as going all the way up to E, that still seems rather high for such a long scale.

So, in scientific notation, the basic question is whether to tune:

D3/D2/D3 - G3/G2/G3 - B3/B2/B3 - E4/E4/E4

which seems pretty low, or to tune

D4/D3/D4 - G4/G3/G4 - B4/B3/B4 - E4/E4/E4

which seems more reasonable, but those "B4's" worry me. That's a full major third above the high G string on a 12-string guitar, and considering the frequency with which that high-G seems to break . . .

Does anybody have any information, insights, sources to offer that will resolve my dilemma?

[Jim Garber]

FWIW there are few sets of Colombian Tiple strings made in the US. The only one I could find was from juststrings.com, on of my favorite sites to buy strings. They have a LaBella set with specs at this link. That would certainly indicate which courses have octave strings. Also that set looks pretty light with the top e strings at .009. That would be tuned the same as a mandolin e string.

I think I would go with the tuning as indicated here: d'dd' g'gg' bbb e'e'e'

[Dr H]

FWIW there are few sets of Colombian Tiple strings made in the US. The only one I could find was from juststrings.com, on of my favorite sites to buy strings. They have a LaBella set with specs at this link. That would certainly indicate which courses have octave strings. Also that set looks pretty light with the top e strings at .009. That would be tuned the same as a mandolin e string.

True, but the scale on mandolin is a lot shorter. I use a 0.009 for the high G on my
12-string guitar, and it works, but it's also my most frequently broken string. I easily
go through 3 of those before I need to replace the rest of the set.

The mandolin "E" is a major 6th above that high G, and I just can't see .009 string holding that pitch on an instrument with a guitar-length scale without snapping as it's being tuned.

I think I would go with the tuning as indicated here: d'dd' g'gg' bbb e'e'e'

Jim, I give you an A+ for effort, but I've looked at both these sources and they just highlight my dilemma. Notice that the source you linked for the tuning says that the "B's" are all tuned in unison, but the La Bella string set you linked to provides two different gauges for the "B" course: two plain 0.007's and one wound 0.018 -- which certainly suggests that one of the strings in the "B" course is tuned an octave lower than the others.

I have also recently discovered that there is a similar, but slightly smaller instrument called the "Tiple Colombiano Requinto" in which the second course strings -are- all in unison. But based on scale, that is not the instrument that I have. At this point I believe that my instrument was mis-strung as the smaller "requinto" version.

But I still have the problem of what octave the various strings should be in.

Last night I experimented with bringing the instrument up to "C" tuning:

C4/C3/C4 * E4/E3/E4 * A4/A3/A4 * D4/D4/D4

Nothing broke, even though those A4's are a whole step above the octave "G"
on the 12-string guitar. I put a micrometer on the high A strings and found that the instrument had come with 0.008's !

Problem is, the two lower courses sound kind of flabby, so I can see why people would want to use the more guitar-like higher tuning.

Well, those .008's held at A4, so maybe I'll buy a bunch of spares and try bringing them up to B4 tonight and see how it goes. I guess the worst that can happen is I'll lose a couple of strings.

Sure would like to know how the instrument is supposed to be tuned, though...

[Jim Garber]

Just curious... where did you acuire this instrument? Is it possible that it is a variant of a Tiple Colombiano, maybe meant for an alto tuning. In that case I would get some custom gauge strings and try them out or get the tiple set and tune it a step lower or so.

Gotta run but will take a good look at this thread later.

[Paul Hostetter]

This video might help answer some questions. Check the pitches and watch his left hand. The embed feature here doesn't seem to work, so I'll just post the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duEst2Hugug

[Jim Garber]

Thanks for posting, Paul. It certainly looks like an instrument with a scale closer to the OP's. Here it is embedded.

[Dr H]

Just curious... where did you acuire this instrument? Is it possible that it is a variant of a Tiple Colombiano, maybe meant for an alto tuning. In that case I would get some custom gauge strings and try them out or get the tiple set and tune it a step lower or so.

Gotta run but will take a good look at this thread later.

Got it from Mexico, through a friend. The scale is right for a Tiple Colombiano. There is a related instrument, the Tiple Colombiano Requinto, that does seem to tune the second course to unisions. But the scale on those is 15-20% shorter than the instrument I have, and the body is shallower. Also, GHS makes a set of strings for the TCR which suggests that it may use a re-entrant tuning: the gauges for the 2nd course are lighter than those for the 1st course. This is not true of the instrument I have.

[Dr H]

Thanks for posting, Paul. It certainly looks like an instrument with a scale closer to the OP's. Here it is embedded.

Thanks for the video, guys. Yes the instrument he's playing looks to be the same scale as mine, and it's pretty obvious that the 2nd course has two different gauges of string on it. It also sounds pretty high, so it may well be that those .008's are tuned all the way up to a B. I haven't tried it on mine yet, but I will. I suppose I should have more faith in modern string technology.

BTW, I don't know if anyone else has tried to play one of these things, but managing those triple courses is a real bear. The guy in the video is amazing, and having finally tried to play one of these things, I can fully appreciate just how amazing.

Once I figure out how to string/tune this thing, it looks like I've got a LOT of woodshedding to do...

[Dr H]

Ok, here's the word:

I put the tiple up into guitar tuning last night and damned if 0.008's in the 2nd course didn't go all the way up to B and hold it just fine. (That's the B above the middle-C on the piano). After tuning I played it vigorously for about an hour, stretched strings, and basically gave it a work out designed to break over-stretched strings if they were going to break: they didn't.

Moreover, the instrument sings in the higher-pitched tuning. I had upped the gauge of some of the lower strings a little, so it sounded OK in C-tuning, but even though that's supposedly the "traditional" tuning, the instrument I have was obviously designed with the higher tuning in mind.

The maker still hasn't responded to my inquiry yet, but based on all of the information provided here and elsewhere, looking at and listening to videos, and last night's experiments, I'm going to say that the "intended" standard tuning for this instrument, the Tiple Colombiano, is, from low-to-high"

D4 D3 D4 - G4 G3 G4 - B4 B3 B4 - E4 E4 E4

... where "D3" is the standard guitar open D-string (D below middle C).


That would make the "traditional C-tuning":

C3 C4 C3 - E4 E3 E4 - A4 A3 A4 - D4 D4 D4

Thanks everyone, for your input.


Now if I can just find a hard-shell case to fit the thing ...

[Dr H]

Well, it looks like my conclusion was justified. Pity I didn't come across this about a month ago... it would have saved a lot of time, typing, and fussing:

http://www.labella.com/tiplec.pdf

[Jim Garber]

They have a LaBella set with specs at this link.

That is the same set I linked to on my post 2/17.

[Dr H]

That is the same set I linked to on my post 2/17.

I see now that it is. Except the JustStrings page doesn't give the actual tunings, and the LaBella PDF does, with staff notation.

The 0.008's tuned to high B are still holding up, BTW. Who'd a thunk it?

Playing this instrument got me thinking: if I take that old 12-string and cut a new nut and saddle for it, I could make a bass tiple, tuned an octave lower than the tiple Colombiano...

[Dr H]

Just a follow-up for all the thousands of members following my tiple odyssey with bated breath.

I came across this album last summer:

http://www.amazon.com/Tiple-Musica-C...keywords=tiple

Which features some competent, and occasionally inspired playing on the Tiple Colombiano. Listening to this basically confirmed my eventual deductions about the tuning (he plays in traditional "C" tuning).

I'm now working on adding a pickup and preamp to the tiple, and having a blast playing it.

Thanks again to those who helped me figure this out.

[s11141827]

Hi there! I'm really new here, so I hope this is the proper forum for this post. If not, perhaps a kindly moderator will move it to a more appropriate location and let me know? There seems to be a lot of expertise and experience hanging around these fora, so I'm hoping someone can calm my tamtrum, or at least straignten out my confusion.

For the past several years I have been acquiring a collection of fretted instruments a bit outside the core guitar-banjo-mandolin group, and actually learning to play some of them well enough that I'm not embarassed to take them out in public. Recently I acquired a Colombian Tiple, and was once again faced with a situation which is becoming one of my pet peeves: finding definitive information on how to tune the damned thing.

There are plenty of soruces on the web and in the library that list all manner of stringed instruments and give the pitch letter names of their basic tunings. But most of these make no reference -- or ambiguous reference -- as to what octave a particualr pitch may reside in. Sometimes this information may be deduced from the the size of the instrument, or the guage of the strings, but in other times it's far from clear. If you are lucky enough to find a source that gives a tuning with octaves, its' a toss up as to which one of a half-dozen arcane systems of octave notation is going to be used.

Having been trained as an engineer myself, I personally prefer the so-called "scientific" form of octave notation: Middle-C on the piano = C4, an octave lower is C3, an octave higher is C5, and so on. But I guess I'm whistling in the dark waiting for musicians and musicologists to adopt that system universally.

Which brings me back to my new tiple. The available information on this instrument seems to be more ambiguous than most. First off, there are at least a half-dozen significantly different instruments that have "tiple" as part of their name, with 4, 5, 9, 10, 12 or some other number of strings. Since most sources just say "tiple" the first bit of detective work necessary is to figure out what kind of tiple they're talking about.

Once I drilled down into the various sources one of the few things most of them seemed to agree on was that my tiple -- the "Tiple Colombiano" or "Colombian Tiple" usually (but not always) has 12-strings, arranged in four courses of three-strings each. OK, that basically describes my instrument, but from there things get a little dicier.

All sources agree that on the Colombian Tiple the middle string of the three in some of the courses is tuned an octave lower than the other strings in the course. How many courses this occurs with is apparently either variable or in dispute: some sources say it occurs in just the lower two courses; some say in the lower three courses, and one says it occurs in all four courses.
The majority of sources say that three courses have a lower-octave string in the middle, so I'm going with that.

Problem is, when my tiple arrived all of the strings in the top two courses were the same guage, implying that they were to be tuned in unison. Moreover, a much lighter guage was used for the second course than for the top course, implying some sort of re-entrant tuning -- but none of the sources I viewed mentioned Colombian tiples using re-entrant tuning.

I am, I suppose, faced with the possibility that my tiple was incorrectly strung at the factory, and I have contacted them, but received no reply yet.

Once the stringing issue is resolved (assuming that it is resolved), I still have ambiguous and conflicting information concerning tuning. So far, I have uncovered at least three different "standard" tunings, usually rendered (low-to-high) as:

dDd-gGg-bBb-EEE

cCc-eEe-aAa-dDd

aAa-dDd-f#F#f#-bBb (called "ukulele tuning")

I'm OK with this: plenty of instruments have more than one common variant tuning, and which one chosen depends on the music being played and what context it's being played in. What I'm tearing my hair out over is what octaves these pitches belong in.

For now, I'm thinking of going with the first tuning:

dDd-gGg-bBb-EEE

OK, one source says that the courses are tuned an octave higher than the first four strings of the guitar. I don't believe this source: that would put the first course up to the mandolin "E", which seems ridiculously high-pitched for an instrument with an almost 22-inch scale.

Most other sources state some variant of the ambiguous statement: "the four sets of three steel strings are tuned to the same pitches as the treble strings of the guitar, with the middle string of the three lowest sets tuned an octave lower."

What is not clear here is which of the strings in the courses are tuned to "the treble strings of the guitar." Basically, I see two possibilities:

1) If the outer strings of the course are tuned to guitar pitch, then tuning the middle string "an octave lower" would put the middle D string down to the bass-guitar D -- which seems ridiculously low for such a small instrument.

2) If it is the middle string of each course that is tuned to the guitar pitch, and the outer strings of each course are tuned an octave higher, that would put the outer strings on the "B" course up to the B above middle-C, a full octave above the guitar B-string. while not as outrageous as going all the way up to E, that still seems rather high for such a long scale.

So, in scientific notation, the basic question is whether to tune:

D3/D2/D3 - G3/G2/G3 - B3/B2/B3 - E4/E4/E4

which seems pretty low, or to tune

D4/D3/D4 - G4/G3/G4 - B4/B3/B4 - E4/E4/E4

which seems more reasonable, but those "B4's" worry me. That's a full major third above the high G string on a 12-string guitar, and considering the frequency with which that high-G seems to break . . .

Does anybody have any information, insights, sources to offer that will resolve my dilemma?

The scale length on a Colombian Tiple is shorter to keep the tension down so that those strings are less likely to break. A trick is to make sure the bridge & nut are lubricated w/ pencil graphite.

[Mark Gunter]

s11141827, thanks for bumping this approximately 13-year-old thread (last updated by OP 10 years ago), because the video featuring Oscar Santafe , which is still appearing, shows some beautiful playing of the Tiple Colombiano