Tell me about: mandolin rhythm in Irish trad

[SincereCorgi]

Hi all; I've been playing mostly bluegrass and old time lately, but somebody invited me to play at a fairly good local Irish session, to my great pleasure, so I'm doing 'homework' to keep from embarrassing myself.

The tunes aren't the problem- I got all the Foinn Seisiún downloads for play-along and some other stuff, and realize that tunes just take time to work their way into your brain and fingers. Since this takes a while, can anybody suggest some strategies for playing tasteful, unobtrusive rhythm on the tunes I don't know? Do people do that on mandolin in trad music? I've watched some Irish guitar rhythm stuff, and could copy it, but I thought I'd throw it open to the Cafe to see what people think.

[Steve L]

Don't do it. Play the melodies you know or have a pint and enjoy the music. Take along a recorder or at least a notebook to jot down titles of the tunes they play so you can key in on those. Think about participating in this session as a long term investment. Take your time, learn the tunes, listen and make friends. As tempting as it is to jump right in, it can send a lot of wrong messages if you don't know the tunes.

[John Flynn]

Steve:

I hope you're not saying that "rhythm players are not welcome at sessions!" Because that would imply that guitar and bouzouki players need to sit out also. What you suggest would have most of us sitting out for years.

To the OP, I think there are ways for rhythm players to work into sessions. A great book on it is, "Celtic Back-up for All Instrumentalists" by Chris Smith, although I will warn you, it is not an easy book. There are some issues you will encounter with playing rhythm at sessions. One is that Irish music does not "need" rhythm support in the same sense that bluegrass and old-time do, because the rhythm is inherent in the melodies.That actually frees you up a bit to try some different things. You want avoid any of the BG and OT "boom-chuck" stuff. You can do single strums on down beats, you can mimic the rhythm in the melody, you can mimic the bodhran player, just to name a few things you can try.

The next issue is playing the right chords and the same chords the other rhythm players are playing. It will not be 1-4-5 very often. You may be in minor or modal keys. You will have minor and seventh chords. You may have more different chords in a given tune than typical in BG and OT. The chords may change at odd intervals compared to BG and OT.

The session I go to has a published set list and standardized chords for each tune in the list. This make it easy for rhythm players. If you don't have that, see if you can make friends with a rhythm player at the session and see if he will show you the ropes.

[Jim Bevan]

I'm with Steve on this one.

It's a shame that Irish trad in North America seems to have developed the working philosophy that a rhythm player who doesn't know the tune will have something to contribute that will be an improvement over the tune played by itself.

Learn the tune, and also figure out a nice rhythmic counterpart, and then be prepared to improvise your contribution, depending on what you feel is needed.
(Standardized chords don't sound like much fun, and I wouldn't pay much attention to them.)

At any rate, you can play what you want, but ya gotta know the tune!

[Steve L]

John, what I was trying to say to the OP is that someone who's just starting to learn tunes coming into an established Irish session trying to use his orientation to American folk music to hunt and peck for chord changes and trying to play a back beat is not going to endear himself to anyone there. There's also a good chance someone there is already backing and having 2 or more players muddying up the rhythm and the harmony is going to be unpleasant. Mandolins typically are more melody instruments rather than rhythm in sessions and in my experience a session with standardized chord changes is strange. If it works for the people involved, that's great but I've not seen that. There are some incredible guitar and bouzouki players here in the Boston area and playing with them is a joy.

If you want to play this music, you have to absorb it by listening to it and you really have to learn the tunes. There's no short way around that if you want to do it right.

[Avi Ziv]

Steve, I'm with you on this. That's how I got into it years ago and it worked well for me as well as my fellow players

[SincereCorgi]

I may have given the wrong impression– I don't intend to show up and chop I IV V chords on the off-beats. I've listened to a fair amount of trad music and worked through some of the "Celtic Back-Up" book, and I also have enough common sense not to step on the progressions of any resident rhythm players. I guess you could say I've got a "first, do no harm" approach to the thing. My question is: does anybody have a mandolin approach to playing rhythm on Irish tunes? I guess I could just buy a nice, big bodhran. Or spoons... yeah... spoons...

[michaelpthompson]

There are ways for rhythm players to work into an Irish session, but the key is "work in." Don't try to jump in right away, and don't play if you don't know the tune. Maybe you can't play melody on it yet, but you should at least be familiar with the tune before you try to contribute. An Irish session is all about the tune. It's not a place to show off your chops, and it's not a jam. The tunes are traditional, and people have very definite ideas about how they should be played.

I never bring an instrument to a session the first time. Sit back, listen, ask questions if there's a break, get to know people. Find out what the rules are, spoken and unspoken.

Some sessions believe there should be no more than one guitar, one accordion, one banjo, one bodhrán, etc., on a tune. Too much rhythm muddies the water, especially if you haven't played together before. Others are more open, but you need to figure out which before you jump in.

[foldedpath]

Don't do it. Learn the tunes.

As has often been said of this music: the melody in Irish trad is fixed, and accompaniment is improvised. It's the reverse of what you're used to in OldTime or Bluegrass. There is a reason why you don't have more than one soloist improvising at the same time in traditional Jazz or Bluegrass. There's a similar reason why trad sessions usually try to limit the number of backers improvising chord choices and rhythm accompaniment at the same time. Even a single backer can throw off the melody players, if they haven't quite nailed the progression or the rhythm. The chances for chaos increase exponentially, as more people are flailing away at it.

The mandolin has an additional problem that guitar and bouzouki players don't have, which is that our instrument sits in the same register as the fiddles. If you play the melody line along with the fiddles, you'll blend right in, and be a part of the music. If you start strumming or arpeggiating chords, then it's much more likely to clash and distract the fiddlers because you're right in their range.

In an Irish trad session, it's considered perfectly normal to sit out the tunes you don't know. Nobody will think less of you, if you just listen, and gradually learn the tunes that the session plays over time. If you're the only backer at a session, then do your best to fill that role. If a guitar and/or bouzouki player is already filling the backer role, then think carefully about whether your chord contribution is really needed, or if you're just doing it because you don't know the tune, and you can't stand not being part of the action.

As someone else said somewhere; you're either contributing to the music, or you're detracting from it. There is no middle ground -- no "do no harm" position -- in a genre of music like this where melody is the primary thing, and backup is incidental.

[David Surette]

I think mandolin can be just as good a rhythm instrument as bouzouki or guitar, with the added advantage that it's easier to play the tunes on the mando, if you choose to play melody. It is in the same range as the fiddle, so I often try to play parts that focus on the lower two strings. I think the Chris Smith book referenced above is a very good one. I try to use moving lines, in conjunction with open strings, and drone notes on the root or fifth. It's easier to stay out of the way with mandolin than it is with guitar (the downside of this is that the mandolin can't drive the rhythm like a guitar or bouzouki can).

I am also a firm believer in trying to blend with the aesthetic of a session, and trying to find a session that you feel comfortable and welcomed. It's a two-way street (maybe a three or four way street), and a session is supposed to be fun.

Thinking of the mandolin as a little bouzouki can help. Open chord strumming works great. Good luck.

[Tim2723]

I think the most important thing to do is to respect the session you're in. There are all kinds of positions on the matter, and it obviously changes from place to place, so you can get lots of well meaning advice on the Internet that might not apply to your session. Remember that not all sessions are democracies where you can petition for change, nor are they necessarily free-speech forums where every voice is heard no matter what you have to say. If your group doesn't want rhythym mandolin, don't do it. The one commonality to every session is that there is no shame in sitting out a tune and listening.

And so that there's no misunderstanding, I'm speaking as one who has wondered into an established session and been asked to sit and listen, not as one who demands what others should do in the session.

[Alan Epstein]

I like the idea that David mentions of of "trying to blend with the aesthetic of a session".

David... Is there any way you can cover that as a topic at your upcomming March Mandolin workshop in Concord?

Thanks,

Alan

[Jon Hall]

I have never been to Ireland but a couple of my band mates have on several occasions and they have said that many sessions will allow a single rhythm player and a single bodhran. In which case everyone else plays the melody.

[danb]

I think mandolin can be just as good a rhythm instrument as bouzouki or guitar, with the added advantage that it's easier to play the tunes on the mando, if you choose to play melody. It is in the same range as the fiddle, so I often try to play parts that focus on the lower two strings.

Exactly this. I stick mostly to the bottom three strings, and play softer than I would on a bouzouki, but it sounds wonderful when done right. Double-stops and not-very-busy strumming rhythms are what you are after

[David Surette]

I like the idea that David mentions of of "trying to blend with the aesthetic of a session".

David... Is there any way you can cover that as a topic at your upcomming March Mandolin workshop in Concord?

Thanks,

Alan

Well, Alan, there are two of us on staff that weekend (myself and Keith Murphy) with extensive experience in irish and Celtic music, so I think a lot of these idea could get covered. Plus our open-ended two hour "round table" on Sunday is an ideal forum for that kind of question. You should bring it up! Hope to see lots of you in March.

[foldedpath]

With regard to blending with the aesthetics of a session: I think it's important for OldTime and Bluegrass players to understand how contentious the whole idea of backup can be for session players, especially for those of the non-fretted instrument persuasion.

For example... and not to be ragging on David here, who is an excellent player in this style of music, but... my Significant Other is a fiddler, and I saw a little puff of steam come out of her ears, when she read David's post about how "the mandolin can't drive the rhythm like a guitar or bouzouki can."

It was the "driving the rhythm" part.

Some sessions may work that way, but in others, a backer is expected to follow the intrinsic pulse of the melody line, and not lead or drive the rhythm. It's a subtle dance between the backer and the melody players. This is one more reason why it's difficult to integrate too many backers in a session. It takes two to tango, three's a crowd....

Again, not all sessions will be like that. There are regional variations, and sessions tend to break out into lower and higher tiers of player ability (the one I help run is firmly in the "intermediate/advancing beginner" category). Some sessions might prefer having a strong rhythm foundation laid down by one or more backers. Just try to be sensitive to which type of session you're joining, and it will work out fine.

[John Flynn]

I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners. There are multiple threads on the intolerance of some bluegrass and old-time jams, talking about things like "jam police" and "stink-eye," but some of the verbiage I have heard regarding Irish sessions makes that sound mild. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for people knowing the tunes, listening to the music and not muddying things up, IN ANY GENRE, but the idea that in Irish music all a beginning player should do is listen and drink beer for three years before they ever bring their instrument in seems elitist and exclusionary. Fortunately, I have found some sessions that are not like that. Unfortunately, I have found some that are. I have to say that I never noticed latter sounding more Irish than the former.

[foldedpath]

I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners.

I hope I haven't given that impression. The session I'm involved with, is actually very welcoming to newcomers. We've been at this less than a year, so we're still trying to build repertoire and encourage new players to join in. On the other hand... yes, we're a little more welcoming if you play a melody instrument, than if you play strictly backup. I don't think that's unusual for Irish sessions.

If some of the posts sound defensive and un-welcoming about the relationship between melody players and backers in this music, there is usually a reason for it. I've seen startup sessions and other gatherings ruined by insensitive guitar and other backup instrument players. I mean literally ruined, in the sense that good melody players never returned to that particular venue. In an environment like that, you're going to see people get a little defensive about preserving what they're trying to do.

[Steve L]

The phrase in the original post that jumped out at me, ( and I'm sure poor SincereCorgi must feel well and truely beaten up which was not anyone's intention I'm sure) was something to the effect of what can I play on the tunes I don't know. This is a hot button in a lot of situations and I don't want this guy going to his first session and getting his head bitten off and never wanting to play this music again.

I've been to sessions where the repertoire was pretty idiosyncratic and I hardly played all night. I heard some good players and some obscure tunes I might not have known otherwise. And most sessions I've played in want someone who only knows a few tunes to be able to play them and we try to accomodate them by playing some pretty overplayed tunes at a very slow tempo so they get a taste. And I've also been to sessions where the level of playing was so high it was best for me to just sit there and listen.

[David Surette]

Just to clarify... "driving the rhythm" is not limited to any instrument, whether it be a melody player or a backer. In a good session with good players, everyone "plays rhythm". I simply was referring to the fact that the wee mandolin is often a bit quieter than the guitar or bouzouki, never mind the tenor banjo or accordion.
No one needs a significant fiddler in their house with ears steaming, and I'd hate to be the one seen as the cause of that!

[michaelpthompson]

I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners....[T]he idea that in Irish music all a beginning player should do is listen and drink beer for three years before they ever bring their instrument in seems elitist and exclusionary. Fortunately, I have found some sessions that are not like that. Unfortunately, I have found some that are. I have to say that I never noticed latter sounding more Irish than the former.

Of course you're right John, and there are few places more welcoming than a good Irish session. Just be sure you know what you're getting into. Many sessions are indeed open and welcoming to a wide variety of styles, but some are actually closed to outsiders, and some are not officially closed, but operate as if they were. Three years is obviously an overstatement, but it does pay to learn the personality of a particular session before trying to join in, just to be sure you're adding to the music, not detracting.

We may make this point a little more strongly to those who play in BG, OT, or other "jam" sessions, just because their experience may not properly prepare them for an Irish seisún. This closed minded among the TRAD police will certainly discourage inappropriate session behavior, and even the experienced player may find that just noodling on chords might not fit in as well at an Irish session as they've experienced elsewhere.

Few Irish sessions actually ARE elitist and exclusionary, but some can feel that way if you don't know what to expect. :-)

[Fretless]

This may be of interest....




Fretless

[foldedpath]

No one needs a significant fiddler in their house with ears steaming, and I'd hate to be the one seen as the cause of that!

No problem David! That "significant fiddler" phrase went a long way, and you know how these fiddlers can be.... (ducking)

[michaelpthompson]

This may be of interest....




Fretless

That's hilarious. And Oh, So True.

[foldedpath]

At the risk of adding too many posts to this thread, I'm gonna say one more thing...

We often ignore another big difference between OldTime or Bluegrass jams, and Irish trad sessions. The Irish session tradition started (roughly) in the 1950's, hanging out in a corner of the local public house (or bar, in American slang). That's still a big part of the scene. All the open Irish sessions I know about here in our little corner of the USA, take place in establishments that serve alchohol. It's a relationship established with the bar owner -- you get a night to play music, hopefully with the sports TV turned off, and sometimes with free drinks from the bar, in return for providing free entertainment for the other patrons.

It's not a paid gig (aside from the free drinks), and no sessioner really thinks of this as a "performance." But there is still an unspoken agreement that the music can't suck too badly, if you're being hosted by the establishment. That's why we don't do slow "learning tunes" at our session, even though it's billed as an intermediate/advancing beginner session. The place for that is private kitchen sessions at our homes, where we're not going to annoy the bar patrons with repeating the same tune 10 times.

If there is an air of exclusion or elitism at a session, part of that might just be the unique relationship that Irish session leaders have with their commercial establishment hosts. The great thing about a pub-hosted session is that none of the members have to offer their own homes for the music jam, or serve their own refreshments. That's a thing worth preserving. Especially when the local bar has good beer on tap.