picking a jig- dud-udu, or dud-dud ?

[Dagger Gordon]

This question reappears about every year or two, and generally produces very similar comments.

I once went to a workshop with American flatpicking guitarist Steve Kaufman, who (like the above advice from Chris Thile) insisted that you should always play alternate DUDU etc. However, he isn't often playing jigs.

On his own Flatpik Forum, I found a question regarding how he would play jigs. It turned out he did indeed deviate from his usual DUDU advice:

Question to Steve Kaufman:

"I have a question concerning the playing of multiple triplets. Should I start each set of triplets with a down pick? Or should I just keep alternating so the first set is a down and the beginning of the second set is an up and so forth? In other words, the latter is keeping a strict up and down pattern throughout. Thanks."

Steve's answer:


"Triplets are a different kind of beast. If they are slow enough you would play them D-U-D D-U-D D-U-D D-U-D
If they are too fast for this you must play them
D-U-D U-D-U D-U-D U-D-U and you have to accent or really hit harder the first of each triplet even though it is an up swing.
They have to have the DA da da DA da da DA da da DA da da sound.
Hope this helps!
Steve K "

Quite a good reply, I thought.

[Brent Hutto]

Dagger,

That quote from Kaufman is the same as the advice I received from my own teacher soon after I started lessons, although with a slight inversion. I was told you can do an effective jig by accenting the proper strokes in a DUD UDU pattern at any speed. And that DUD DUD was a special pattern to use for added emphasis at slower tempos. Same advice just stated in the opposite order.

The general flow of this thread has been somewhat disparaging of the idea Kaufman states as "...accent or really hit harder the first of each triplet even though it is an up swing". But in fact, with sufficient skill and practice I believe that approach can produce rhythmic emphasis of a very fine quality. But DUD DUD does still have its own sound.

[Bernie Daniel]

Dagger,

That quote from Kaufman is the same as the advice I received from my own teacher soon after I started lessons, although with a slight inversion. I was told you can do an effective jig by accenting the proper strokes in a DUD UDU pattern at any speed. And that DUD DUD was a special pattern to use for added emphasis at slower tempos. Same advice just stated in the opposite order.

The general flow of this thread has been somewhat disparaging of the idea Kaufman states as "...accent or really hit harder the first of each triplet even though it is an up swing". But in fact, with sufficient skill and practice I believe that approach can produce rhythmic emphasis of a very fine quality. But DUD DUD does still have its own sound.

Like Dagger says this exact topic comes up again and again and since nothing has changed the very same pro's and con's are advanced and parried every time. (Is this related to insanity - i.e.,
doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Maybe not.)

Any I have come to think of it this way. All music has rules and traditions.

Bluegrass players do not generally question how Bill Monroe played chop chords in BG (and live very long that is).

Celtic traditional music started in the Celtic cultures and they must have had their own Monroe-like figures who decided that way to play the jigs they invented was DUD DUD. So, if you want to play traditional Celtic music then that is how it is done.

If you want to do it different that's the individual's personal call but then it is not "right". Nothing wrong or illegal about being wrong!

But I don't see why people question the methods/techniques of folks who invented and grew up playing traditional Celtic music? Anyway that is just my opinion that I have come to after many of these threads.

That said I don't do DUD DUD because I get confused -- but picking patterns -- considering all my other faults are neither here nor there!

[Brent Hutto]

Bernie,

Well there is the slight wrinkle that fiddles and bagpipes don't have a pick. So a jig played by a fiddler or that matter a pipe march did not originate with any picking pattern at all!

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie,

Well there is the slight wrinkle that fiddles and bagpipes don't have a pick. So a jig played by a fiddler or that matter a pipe march did not originate with any picking pattern at all!

True -- but then who KNOWS what those wind makers argue about! I do think the fiddlers debate all kind of issues related to the right way to bow these tunes

But as noted these minor details on picking patterns are small potatoes in the plethora my mandolin playing maladies.

[Brent Hutto]

Hey, if you want picking patterns to sound like small potatoes just get fiddlers started talking about bowing on Scottish tunes. Then try to get them stopped talking about it. What a nightmare, I doubt a lifetime is long enough to learn how to use a bow correctly on that stuff. At least mine isn't.

[Jill McAuley]

Well the proof in the pudding is the person's actual playing at the end of the day - I'm sure there are folk out there who could murder DUD DUD and manage to make a jig not sound like a jig, just as there are folk doing the same with DUD UDU etc. I'm not concerned about what someone's picking pattern of choice is - what I'm interested in is whether or not the music they're playing actually sounds like trad music! Janey mack, play with your teeth Jimi Hendrix style for all I care and as long as it sounds like a jig you're alright in my book!

Cheers,
Jill

[Ed Goist]

Well, here's the DUD DUD in action by a total newbie to jigs.
Been working on them for about a week, and I must say, they feel pretty intuitive to me...DUD DUD strokes, along with a continual ONE, two, three, ONE, two, three going on in the head as I'm playing.
Here is one of my favorites so far.
Sorry for the couple of speed bumps along the way, and the audio isn't the greatest (I need a new webcam, any suggestions?)

[Jill McAuley]

Well done to you sir! And weren't you only after saying in another thread that you didn't think you'd post clips for awhile - glad you thought better of it! As for the webcam question, if it was me, I'd go for a Flip camera or the Zoom Q3 HD - I've a webcam and so-so audio and poor synchronization seem to be par for the course I'm afraid - my next purchase is going to be the Q3!

Cheers,
Jill

[Ed Goist]

Jill, thanks very much.
After I was griping about the webcam this afternoon, my daughter worked with me to adjust some of the microphone settings on the computer's internal microphone, and we got things at least usable.
Can one get immediate playback/preview & delete capabilities with the flip camera and/or the Zoom?...I'm along way from being a "one take player"
Thanks again for the kind words, much appreciated.
...Still much work to do.

[John Flynn]

Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration.

I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150. That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice.

My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?

[Brent Hutto]

My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?

From his earlier-quoted comment it sounds like Chris Thile chose your latter option. Lord knows he can play fast but apparently he still doesn't want to slow down and DUD DUD.

[Bernie Daniel]

Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration.

I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150. That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice.

My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?

Well I am not the best person to give advice here that is for sure. But I've thought about it and I've concluded that I won't worry about it as I expect I will never play at the Comhaltas Convention. I try to play all kinds of music so I don't change my picking patterns but endeavor to get the best sound I can with essentially alternate picking on everything I play.

[Jill McAuley]

Jill, thanks very much.
After I was griping about the webcam this afternoon, my daughter worked with me to adjust some of the microphone settings on the computer's internal microphone, and we got things at least usable.
Can one get immediate playback/preview & delete capabilities with the flip camera and/or the Zoom?...I'm along way from being a "one take player"
Thanks again for the kind words, much appreciated.
...Still much work to do.

You can definitely playback and delete immediately with the Flip cam, not sure about the specs on the Q3 but I'd assume it to be similar, as most of those devices seem to work from a similar template as regards basic options.

Cheers,
Jill

[Ed Goist]

Jill, thanks for the info...Looks like a rare shopping trip (to Best Buy) is in order.
Another question, how does one know the shot is well framed on the flip when working alone? It appears that the shot perspective can only be seen from a user behind the camera.
(Oh, and Jill, I'm quite impressed you are posting at 6:18 am your time.)

[Ed Goist]

Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration.
I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150.
...snip...

John, thank you very much for your kind words.

The BPM thing is intriguing. I went back and looked at the video closely and you are right on...I played 64 beats (16+16+16+16) in 44 seconds, which works out to 87 BPM. I wasn't even thinking of speed, and I actually think the song sounds pretty decent at this tempo.

130 to 150 BPM is pretty ballistic...Supersonic even. I have always thought that right hand speed is one of my very few strong suites, but that would really be a challenge to do DUD DUD.

Interestingly, I find that on almost all of the jigs I'm working on, I can play one section measurably faster (I'd guess around 100 BPM) than the other section (on some jigs it's the A section & on some it's the B section), and I actually need to slow-down on the "good" section to keep even time on the whole song.

Anyway, I love these jigs. They have such a feeling of familiarity to me that I find them easy to conceptualize and internalize fairly quickly while learning them (and this isn't usually the case for me with fiddle tunes and other songs).

Thanks again for the kind words. I look forward to continuing to work on these wonderful songs!

BTW, here is a really good discussion of BPM as it applies to jigs and ITM.

[Brent Hutto]

If I understand correctly, the essence of playing jigs is that the tunes are usually straightforward, catchy and fun but getting the right feel at the proper speed of around 130bpm is darned challenging. When thinking about the speed of a jig, just imagine some of those Irish dancing troupes that were real popular a few years back...and imagine being their accompanist..accompini...err, mandolin player.

[chriss]

That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice.

My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?

John yes this is exactly my situation. I was wondering if there's some lil trick or approach to DUD-DUD that I'm missing that speeds it up. But it sounds like some people can do it comfortably at session speed and others ( ... me, you ... ) seem to still wrestle with it even with lots of practice.

Way back when, when I said jigs come together "smoothly" using DUD-UDU, the "smoothly" refers to getting the rhythm+timing right, that is, being on time +not late on the "4" beat. I don't have trouble getting a good strong emphasis on "4" on the upstroke of "DUD-UDU". So I'm inclined to stick with what I got, keep aiming to "play the song, not just play the notes," keep learning more tunes, and enjoying our Mon nite session tonight.

I sure appreciate everyone's perspectives.
C

[Randi Gormley]

This came up during a couple of workshops at Catskills Irish Arts week and different mandolin teachers (all of whom are banjo players, btw) said different things; one would say DUD DUD and the other DUD UDU and a third just wouldn't even get into it. The idea, as it was mentioned several times, is that what it sounds like is more important than any particular pick stroke pattern. For years, I've played upside down anyway; I naturally would start DUD UDU and end up UDU DUD (had one teacher comment that i was probably dynamite on polkas), but I didn't have much problem with emphasis on the correct beats. When I started taking lessons for classical mandolin, I was absolutely lectured that any 3/4 pattern was DUD DUD. So I've been trying to switch over and have mostly managed to do DUD DUD for classical pieces and when I'm playing jigs slowly (when we're learning something new, say) but do drift back to the old way when I'm playing something I already know, especially at session speed. At least in my case, I appear to be able to do both, but my default is DUD UDU (actually UDU DUD UDU) when speed is the primary need.

[John Flynn]

One of the issues is the speed that some sessions like to play at. ITM is supposed to be dance music and I've read that for dance, jigs should be in the 115-120 range. If the sessions I went to kept it at that speed, I would be tempted to put some work on "re-tooling" to DUD DUD. I think with some woodshedding I could get there. But I've rarely been at sessions where jigs went that slow. For some players, sometimes it seems like a contest as to how fast they can go. Of course, that dynamic is no different in old-time music, which I have more experience with, but they rarely play jigs, and when they do, they really slow them down.

[chriss]

ITM is supposed to be dance music and I've read that for dance, jigs should be in the 115-120 range {...} For some players, sometimes it seems like a contest as to how fast they can go.

hahaha John, I think YOU'RE NOW REALLY ONTO SOMETHING. Yup sometimes it's just a flat-out horse race. And of course ITM serves another time-honored purpose as pub music in addition to for dancing. Which by the way, I personally fully support in every way. But when it turns from dancin music to drinkin music, or music to drink by, for either the musicians or for the rest of the pub listening ... then that's when the "governor" is sure to come off. And I mean "governor" in it's engineering/mechanical meaning and it's British slang meaning equally.

Ah well, it is, what it is, and people will be people.

So yeah bring it on. Pull some pints, I'll warm up my DUD-UDU forget about my DUD-DUD cuz my D-D ain't gonna work for this, and let's have a go. I'm pretty sure I won't win anything but I'm just as sure I'll be grinning and laughing halfway thru haha!

[Tracey]

I've just started working on Swallowtail Jig from Chris Thile's Essential Techniques. FWIW he recommends DUD-DUD. After spending so much time working on DUDUDUDU in 4/4 time, the DUD-DUD pattern is a real challenge.

[Bernie Daniel]

I've just started working on Swallowtail Jig from Chris Thile's Essential Techniques. FWIW he recommends DUD-DUD. After spending so much time working on DUDUDUDU in 4/4 time, the DUD-DUD pattern is a real challenge.

Well that's interesting. In another video he says always alternate. Oh well, I think that shows you need to do what works best for you unless you have hope of winning All Ireland on the mandolin some day -- assuming they have that catagory.

DUD DUD probably will not win first place for you at Winfield though. Anyway looking at Randi's post (#44) I guess playing waltzes is good training for jigs? Sound good to me.

[Vigee]

When I started taking lessons for classical mandolin, I was absolutely lectured that any 3/4 pattern was DUD DUD.

For non-jig 6/8s? I think that's interesting, since Mair implies that the alternating picking should be the default for Classical. Line line should remain smooth even as the beats carry the emphasis , something not usually associated with jig picking.

[foldedpath]

Well that's interesting. In another video he says always alternate. Oh well, I think that shows you need to do what works best for you unless you have hope of winning All Ireland on the mandolin some day -- assuming they have that catagory.

Well, Chris Thile isn't saying "use what works for you," he's saying that Bluegrass is played one way, and Irish trad is typically played another way.

In a similar vein, you'll see a lot of straight alternating picking in Tim O'Brien's "The Mandolin and Bouzouki of Tim O'Brien" instructional DVD. But when he shows you how he plays the "Kid on the Mountain" jig, he does it with DUD, DUD picking, because that's what works to express the rhythm of the tune.

This isn't about winning contests, it's about learning how Irish trad is different... very different... from what many of us are used to, in American music genres. You can bypass all this advice from players who have worked through this stuff, but make sure you're doing it for a good reason, and not just because it takes extra work to get there.

I have that same love/hate relationship to ornaments, which is the next layer of difficulty after you've got the different rhythms down, and can play some tunes up to session and dance speeds. I can do DUD,DUD just fine, but getting consistent ornaments on mandolin for Irish trad is a killer. I'll get there, eventually. Some things just take years, and not months or days of practice.