avoidence of barre chords

[EdHanrahan]

- if you don't stop to pee yourself in the night an eagle will come and carry you away

AH!! That's why I keep waking up on the danged mountain top!

As to the 5ths question, I'm guessing that the intent may have been more that "fifths don't need to be played", than that they "need to be avoided". Here's my (probably faulty) logic:

An article in Acoustic Guitar maybe 10 or 12 years ago commented that the root and the 3rd are the defining notes of a chord, and implied that the 5th was sort of extraneous. It struck me as an odd comment (but obviously memorable!), and took a long time to appreciate. I now see that the 3rd in a chord defines major-or-minor-ness (an important thing), while the 5th is strongly suggested (on stringed instruments) by the 2nd harmonic of the root note. That is: the first harmonic of the root (the string vibrating in halves) gives a fairly strong octave, while the 2nd harmonic (the string vibrating in thirds) gives a still fairly strong presence of the 5th note. For example, a harmonic G note vibrates an octave+ above a plucked C... it's a big part of what gives our instruments their native sound.

Hey, that's my guess, and I'm stickin' to it!

[Mike Bunting]

AH!! That's why I keep waking up on the danged mountain top!

As to the 5ths question, I'm guessing that the intent may have been more that "fifths don't need to be played", than that they "need to be avoided". Here's my (probably faulty) logic:

An article in Acoustic Guitar maybe 10 or 12 years ago commented that the root and the 3rd are the defining notes of a chord, and implied that the 5th was sort of extraneous. It struck me as an odd comment (but obviously memorable!), and took a long time to appreciate. I now see that the 3rd in a chord defines major-or-minor-ness (an important thing), while the 5th is strongly suggested (on stringed instruments) by the 2nd harmonic of the root note. That is: the first harmonic of the root (the string vibrating in halves) gives a fairly strong octave, while the 2nd harmonic (the string vibrating in thirds) gives a still fairly strong presence of the 5th note. For example, a harmonic G note vibrates an octave+ above a plucked C... it's a big part of what gives our instruments their native sound.

Hey, that's my guess, and I'm stickin' to it!

That's a good guess. In jazz, it is the 3rd and 7th that define the chord.

[Brent Hutto]

There is a principle in classical counterpoint that parallel fifths should be avoided. Perhaps this is a mis-remembered version of that "rule"? I can't imagine any sense in which playing fifths along with the root in accompaniment chords is consider undesirable.

[journeybear]

Hmmm ... maybe that is what I was remembering, with what is left of my feeble brain. Not the fifth itself, but parallel fifths. I assume that means constructing a harmony line that follows the melody line exactly a fifth higher, rather than the much-beloved third? I guess I can see that, though I can also see where that could be evocative in some situations.

[EdHanrahan]

... I can also see where that could be evocative in some situations.

You bet! First time I heard of "parallel fifths" was Ian & Sylvia's acapella version of "Texas Rangers" (from the liner notes). A truly haunting description of, well, a bloody mess!!

[mandocrucian]

An article in Acoustic Guitar maybe 10 or 12 years ago commented that the root and the 3rd are the defining notes of a chord, and implied that the 5th was sort of extraneous. It struck me as an odd comment (but obviously memorable!), and took a long time to appreciate.

Regarding perfect 5ths in the context of mandolin chords & backing, I can think of plenty of situations where the 5th is preferable to playing the 3rd.

1) Some other instrument in a lower register is probably touching the 3rd (bass line), or has it in their chord (guitar). All the high treble instruments are fairly redundant in the role of establishing the chord and tonality.

2) Since the mandolin is so high in the chord stack, unamibiguously defining the chord as major or as minor, is likely to hinder the pitch choice preferences of the lead instrumentalist, and, to be blunt, get in the way. What if the guitarist want to play bluesy lines and blues scales, and you are playing major 3rds above him/her? What if a fiddle player wants to get bluesy and is in the exact same register - the fiddle blue note and your major 3rd in the chord could be sounding simultaneously a half-step away from each other.

Playing minor (lead) against major (accompaniment) works, when the chords are below the lead playing. So you can play blues licks above a major guitar chord; but unless you really know what you are doing, it doesn't sound that great the other way around.

Of course, these concerns vanish if the mando is the primary rhythm instrument, or if you are responsive enough to alter your playing to support the soloist, rather than forcing him into a box of your choosing. I can't stand having to play solos a particular way or in a particular tonality because of what a rhythm player is doing...i.e. I'll sound like garbage because what I would prefer to do is going to collide head-on sonically.

Niles H

[Don Stiernberg]

what Mike Bunting said.

The third and seventh dictate the quality of the chord, or which family of chords it belongs with. Thirds tell us about major vs. minor, sevenths tell us whether the chord is a dominant (position V, wanting to resolve to a root such as G7 to C, V-I)or not.

Root notes might be the same in any of these situations.

A fifth that is raised or lowered often indicates either a minor cadence,or that the dominant chord in a major cadence has been altered to either add interest(tension) or accomodate a specific melody note.

The range of the mandolin being up a little higher means it can be cool to feature the color notes or alterations by way of leaving the roots out of chord voicings sometimes. They are generally picked up and played by the lower voiced instruments (guitar, piano, bass) anyway. This is particularly true in swing and jazz. Consider the piano player and his ten fingers. It seems unlikely that he would give four of them over to playing different versions of the root..

The bluegrass or Bill Monroe chop voicing(who chopped the first chop anyway?) AND the barre chords that kicked off this discussion are another matter. There the emphasis is on a percussive sound that is part of the rhythm section. Doubled roots or a general triadic sound keep the sound of the chord lean and to the point. Too many notes of interest, be they color tones like 6ths or ninths, or tensions/alterations such as b5,#5,b9,#9, distract from the "pffft" sound that the rest of the band keys on for counting, drive, offbeat, what have you.

It's not that you can't get a short staccato rhythm stroke when playing swing or jazz chords. in fact, the technique is quite a bit the same, isn't it?...press the strings down, strike with pick, release pressure very quickly.The main aesthetic choices are which notes fit the genre of music you're playing, and where you place them rhythmically in the bar or phrase.

Blues guys play flatted sevenths everywhere--on the I, IV, and V. That's cool. It doesn't really mean that all three chords are dominant chords. The bass function still gives us the I, IV, V functionality. Conversely, bluegrass guys often play a full major chord in the V position--think of the chop D chord in a G, C, D song. Theoretically that's a D7 chord, but again there's usually enough there for us to feel the gravity of the progression even when the mandolin player plays only D's and F#'s.

Similarly, in jazz we need to be on the lookout in fakebooks for unaltered dominants in minor progressions. For Minor Swing, your chart may tell you Am-Dm-E7, but it will sound more minor(and cool as hell) if you play E7 altered, which would include E7b5, E7#5,E7b9,E7#9...one alteration begets another.

Whether your ear listens for thirds and sevenths to detect chord qualities, or root movements in the bass line to delineate cadences, whether you like one style or another or a blend of styles, it's good to remember that IT'S ALL GOOD and you'll want to be able to see where everything is in your mind's eye and be sure your hand can get you there in an instant.

[Tom Wright]

What Don said, plus these points:

The type of band and music will steer your style toward percussion if a typical bluegrass group with guitar and bass in the mix, since the spread chords are happening in the guitar and the bass is well covered by the two, and the upper harmonies are happening in the melody, fiddle or banjo (when not mandolin). So the mandolin's job of snare drum is helped most by the close-voiced and mostly low-register chords that land in the instrument's strong body resonances. This means mostly from 5th fret D on the A string down to the C on 5th fret G string. Barre chords are fine if you can't grab anything else but won't much help the punchy tone.

For chop it is mostly concentrating some notes in that fat tonal range that gives you a powerful effect. The tinkly E string won't help at all, and the open barre shape means you have probably only one note in the power range. To stay there you could use the even tighter voicing of a root triad, such as 9-5-2 for E minor. If I was chopping in G I would use 7-5-2 (don't waste effort on the E string) for G, 9-5-3 for C, and 7-3-0 for D, and the above 9-5-2 for E minor, and 5-2-0 for A minor. (I think I have the numbers right now.)

For solo playing, however, open chords fill the sonic space and make for an effect of larger size. Bach uses mostly open chords including what we call barre, with few exceptions, for solo violin. Even in concertos the big effect is produced by those tall chords---tight 3rds and triads are for focused melodic passages.

Artful chord choice depends on the role, with most folk and jazz guitar playing utilizing common notes that don't change between related chords, so as to emphasize the interesting ones that do change, in the bass or melody. Sometimes in rock we like the power chords that move in a bloc up or down the neck but even bluegrass sounds better when you don't simply grab the easy chord but look for the reason you're playing a chord at all and use the appropriate choice. As above, even bluegrass chopping benefits from using common notes and staying in a narrow range.

[Bertram Henze]

There is a principle in classical counterpoint that parallel fifths should be avoided.

I dimly remember that the same principle allegedly also applies for 4ths an octaves.

[Brent Hutto]

I dimly remember that the same principle allegedly also applies for 4ths an octaves.

Makes sense. I've never had a counterpoint class, just seen bits and pieces in various music-theory books. But 5ths, 4ths and octaves fort sort of a set, don't they?

[essaykay]

Interestingly, my instructor told me recently that I form barre chords like a guitarist, and that I need to form them differently for a mando. Rather than using the flat part of my index finger, he said to use the tip more. I was unable to flatten all 4 strings (two pairs of two) but he said I will get it. The reason being that one cannot shift the chord to other chord shapes and locations as fast when the last third of my finger is completely flattened.. While it felt impossible to get 4 strings sufficiently flattened enough to get a clear note, I am getting closer. Frustrating now but seems to make sense.

[Flattpicker]

Actually, at one time doubling at the fifth (for long passages) was considered the thing to do with early harmonization of Gregorian chant. But it was eventually dropped and parallel fifths between even two pairs of notes were considered off-limits for centuries. Debussy made that sound work again. In general, contrary motion, rather than similar or parallel motion, is better.

[Tom Wright]

Parallel voicing just does a different job than constant-pedal or contrary motion bass. It pretty much makes for a single voice of thicker texture, which can make a point at the right moment in a song. Consider the end of "Sweet Georgia Brown", or the beginning of "All Along the Watchtower".

As to fingering, both arched and flattened fingering is useful for barring, depending on the situation. For a fully-flattened index finger across the four courses, try rolling toward the bridge slightly, onto the inside of the finger. This is the opposite if the position you need for reach, though, so it is a special case.

[SincereCorgi]

Makes sense. I've never had a counterpoint class, just seen bits and pieces in various music-theory books. But 5ths, 4ths and octaves fort sort of a set, don't they?

The tricky thing about all these voice-leading guidelines is that they're designed to ensure clear contrapuntal textures in, say, four-part harmony, mostly within the framework of major/minor tonality. The rules get a lot fuzzier once you're writing in 'keyboard style' with all its doublings, and once you get to bluegrass textures (constant banjo arpeggios) or jazz harmony (all those sevenths and ninths and elevenths...) they're not that useful. Just my two cents.

[Brent Hutto]

The tricky thing about all these voice-leading guidelines is that they're designed to ensure clear contrapuntal textures in, say, four-part harmony, mostly within the framework of major/minor tonality. The rules get a lot fuzzier once you're writing in 'keyboard style' with all its doublings, and once you get to bluegrass textures (constant banjo arpeggios) or jazz harmony (all those sevenths and ninths and elevenths...) they're not that useful. Just my two cents.

Absolutely agree. The only reason to remember all that counterpoint stuff is for insight into why things like parallel-fifths do produce their distinctive effect on the sound (like Tom Wright explained). Kind of like if play a whole boatload of octaves on guitar you'll get a Wes effect. It's good to know what voicing goes with that particular texture.

[Jesse Harmon]

Line from Joe Pass at Wayne State University, "Now somebody out there can probably tell me what I just did" Not that this discussion hasn't been really great, but you can absolutely get tied up with theory. Great discussion though. I have found that theoretical points really stick when you are ready for them. Love all the practical info on chords which i greatly need on mando.

[Brent Hutto]

If I had 1/10 of Mr. Passalaqua's talent, ear and imagination I wouldn't give a nickel for all the music theory in the world. Some of us have to, you know, figure out what works and what doesn't or we'd never get anywhere.

When I ask my mandolin teacher how to accompany a tune and the reply is "Try this chord, and this one and just move back and forth between them strumming in rhythm" it is helpful to also hear "There's no third in that E voicing which is why it works under the E-major and E-minor without having to change shapes". That way I have a theory to store away in my brain and figure out for myself what to do next time. There are limits to learning by monkey-see-monkey-do unless a) you are a "monkey" that's really quick on the uptake or b) you have lots and lots of time to spend accumulating particular bits and pieces until it all gels into some coherent idea of what to do when.

[Jesse Harmon]

Brent, you missed the whole point of my reply. I teach theory and classical guitar. One of the biggest struggles I have had is defending the value of reading standard notation against the monkey see monkey do approach. Especially since the advent of the internet which contains a significant amount of erroneous information. Reread my post, and the first thread and see if you can find any reason you should be talking about parallel fifth's and counter point. I have had students come to me from teacher's, (I am tempted to mention a famous music school they were from) who gave them all sorts of modal scales and theoretical information when they couldn't even form simple chords. Rules can get in the way. Which was I think Joe's point. I hesitate to post because so many here are just looking for a nit to pick in every semantical twist of a phrase. Reread my post.

[AlanN]

Yep.

Another line from a great jazz guitarist, maybe Ted Dunbar (and I paraphrase):

"Now, against this chord progression, you want to use so-and-so scales, only. Or, you can throw all that out and play what sounds good."

[Brent Hutto]

Well I only mention the counterpoint stuff was to jog the memories of those who were trying to recall where they might have heard "No Fifths" as some sort of musical rule. A lot of people have been exposed to a touch of theory here and there and I was pretty sure that was the origin of the idea. And it sounds like that might have indeed be the case.

For myself, I actually couldn't quote you anything about classical counterpoint beyond the random meme of "No Parallel fifths" that somehow lodged in my brain years or decades ago. But I was pretty darned sure there is no principle that would lead a person to omit the fifth when playing triads or chords in accompaniment. Omit the third, sure. The fifth is about as innocuous as the root as far as I can tell.

[Flattpicker]

Actually, when you start adding 9ths, 13ths, etc., on mandolin or guitar, the fifth is often the first thing to go--unless the fifth is altered.