What kind of mando for Celtic/Irish music?

[michaelpthompson]

I'm just new to the mandolin. I've got an old bowlback I got off eBay, but it's turning out to be a challenge to get it playable.

Currently, I play guitar, mostly Irish pub songs, and I'm learning rhythm guitar for session tunes. I'm not much of a picker, more of a strummer, or whanger. Any recommendations on what kind of mandolin would be best for me?

[Jill McAuley]

You can play Irish/Celtic music on any kind of mandolin - in Ireland you'll come across folk playing flat tops, carved tops, A's, F's, oval hole, f-hole, bowl back - it's all good. For meself the "best mandolin" is the one with the "best" playability.

Cheers,
Jill

[Dave Hanson]

In the great Irish band ' The Dubliners ' both Barney and John have played a Fylde Octavious mandolin for quite a few years now.

Dave H

[Bertram Henze]

What Jill said, plus look for max. volume.
If you want to play melody in a noisy session, you'll have to cut through to be audible amongst fiddles and boxes. OTOH volume is hard to predict and independent from the type of mandolin.

If you want to play accompaniment, a larger member of the mandolin family is advisable, e.g. an octave mandolin or a bouzouki.

[Gerry Cassidy]

I'm just new to the mandolin. I've got an old bowlback I got off eBay, but it's turning out to be a challenge to get it playable.

Currently, I play guitar, mostly Irish pub songs, and I'm learning rhythm guitar for session tunes. I'm not much of a picker, more of a strummer, or whanger. Any recommendations on what kind of mandolin would be best for me?

Along the lines of what Jill said: Just find a mandolin that feels and sounds good to you, no matter the look/design, and have a ball!

[Steve L]

In the great Irish band ' The Dubliners ' both Barney and John have played a Fylde Octavious mandolin for quite a few years now.

Dave H

I think the "Octavius" model Fyldes are for long scaled instruments like bouzoukis with octave courses, but they do make very fine mandolins well worth considering.

[Schlegel]

There seems to be a something of a preference for oval-holed flat topped instruments, but that may seem so just because ITM does not require chopping, so there's no reason for needing an archtop instrument with its extra cost. Certainly both work. Mandolin is not a traditional Irish instrument, so there's no "traditional" choice. Personally, I like the oval hole sound, but this is a situation where you are free to go with whatever sound pleases you the most.

[allenhopkins]

If you're looking for a mandolin to strum chords on, I'd suggest an oval-hole -- either carved-top, flat-top, or "bent"-top -- rather than an f-hole instrument. The oval-hole instruments seem to "ring" longer, which would be a positive for your style. The Big Muddy US-made instruments get uniformly good reviews here on the Cafe; here's their website.

[Jock]

I think Jill nails it regarding finding an instrument that suits your playing. I went looking for a new mandolin, mainly for traditional scots/irish music and went thinking oval hole. The mandolin I came home with would be right at home in a bluegrass line up, f holed archtop, woody loads of bark but also plenty of cut that sounds just fine for stm/itm, to my ear at least. A ringing mandolin sounds good solo duet or small ensemble, but much of that brilliance is lost in a crowd where as a more focused tone seems less affected.

Horses for courses. So the mandolin, IMO, for Irish music; would be the bird in the hand

[Paul Kotapish]

I play scads of Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, and Quebec tunes on an F-style instrument because that particular instrument suits my playing and I don't much like switching instruments around, but if I were going to choose an instrument for trad Irish/Scottish tunes exclusively, I'd opt for an oval-hole, archtop instrument, preferably either an old Gibson A (as per Andy Irvine or Marla Fibish) or a Stefan Sobell (as per Dave Richardson et al).

[JeffD]

A Stefan Sobell instrument would be an excellent choice.

[Brent Hutto]

I never play chop chords and never will. But I find the sound of a flat-top, oval hole mandolin very disappointing. Gotta be an arched top and ff-holes for me no matter what kind of music. Same holds for recordings. I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.

[Steve-o]

Ok, here's a choice that is clearly "outside the box" for ITM: National Reso-phonic RM-1! I am seriously thinking of one for large sessions where any other mandolin is lost amongst the fiddles. These puppies are LOUD! But amazingly sweet in tone - not metallic sounding at all. So my question is, would you be asked to leave it at home if you brought it to your local session?

(Note - there is some discussion on this in the National RM-1 Social Group)

[Ed Goist]

...Gotta be an arched top and ff-holes for me no matter what kind of music. Same holds for recordings. I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.

I find it really hard to disagree with this. As much as I love the look, concept, and vibe of the oval hole mandolin, I just keep coming back to the ff-hole archtop mandolin for its versatility and overall superior tone.

I'm coming to believe that the way to most effectively achieve tonal variation in multiple mandolins is to consider different builders, differing degrees of arching, different tonewood, and different bracing, but all still with ff soundholes.

[Bertram Henze]

I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.

The good thing about ITM is that instrument style is hardly ever discussed - you can turn up with whatever you like at a session.

As a last resort, if someone complains about your f-holes being appropriate, you can always argue that fiddlers seem to prefer them and you haven't seen many oval-hole fiddles yet.

[Jock]

A Stefan Sobell instrument would be an excellent choice.

Sure would and I'm familiar with several, 4 & 5 course mandolins octaves and zukes. For many it's the must have instruments but there are a few Sobell players starting to look at american instruments and one fellow of my acquaintance, who has a few Sobell's of different flavors, is now playing an american archtop f hole mandolin as his main session axe.

[Bruce Moffatt]

I never play chop chords and never will. But I find the sound of a flat-top, oval hole mandolin very disappointing. Gotta be an arched top and ff-holes for me no matter what kind of music. Same holds for recordings. I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.

ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.

[Mike Thomas]

Ok, here's a choice that is clearly "outside the box" for ITM: National Reso-phonic RM-1! I am seriously thinking of one for large sessions where any other mandolin is lost amongst the fiddles. These puppies are LOUD! But amazingly sweet in tone - not metallic sounding at all. So my question is, would you be asked to leave it at home if you brought it to your local session?

(Note - there is some discussion on this in the National RM-1 Social Group)

I strung my RM1 with Thomastik strings and brought it to a couple of different sessions. No complaints; in fact some folks started asking me to bring it.

[Brent Hutto]

ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.

Bruce,

I'm talking entirely about what my ears like to hear. Many people whose opinions I greatly respect dig the classical oval-hole tone and that's the way their ears work. But having heard some examples of what is considered outstanding "as good as it gets" oval-hole tone I'm struck by the fact that any good ff-hole archtop sounds better to me. There's just a quality to even the best ovals that sounds compressed and unpleasant to me.

I could have better stated it as "Regardless of the style of music being played, my preference for the ff-hole tone trumps everything else whether as a player or a listener".

[Jock]

ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.

I hear you Bruce and to be honest that was what I was looking for when I went out to find a new mandolin. I researched it for about a year checking out every mandolin i came across, bugging all my mandolin pals and settled on the idea of an archtop type oval mandolin best suiting my needs by the end of the exercise. I rejected many and eventually went on a 2000 mile round trip. After no small amount of looking I eventually found the mandolin that talked to me in the price range that seemed right. It wasn't an oval though, which was surprising, but I'm long enough in the tooth to trust my ears.

My eventual choice was made by some serious comparing on the day (at the UK's quality mandolin superstore, in Brighton england). I tried this particular instrument out against a multitude of others, oval and f hole. My choice just had that something that kept me coming back to it and using it as a bench mark, but at a $1000 less than the next contender, also an f hole, it was a simple choice in the end (poor guy must have been glad to see the back of me when I left the shop). The ovals just weren't doing it for me that day, not in the sub $3500 class at any rate. So although it isn't an oval and in theory not that suited to insular traditional music, it's my bird in the hand and therefore, perfect for me

[Brent Hutto]

Jock,

Interesting experience. I hope to make a pilgrammage to Brighton one summer or another myself.

But my question is, what blue-ribbon panel of experts validated the "theory" that oval holes ought to be suited for trad music in the first place? I have a feeling that is just one of the thousands of self-propogating memes that flourish in the Internet Age with no specific origin and no basis in anything other than hearsay. I can't think of any a priori physical or acoustic principle that leads from that form of music to its production by an oval-shaped hole in the soundboard of a mandolin.

[Jill McAuley]

ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.

ff hole instrument = a mandolin of any body shape that has ff sound holes.

Oval hole instrument = a mandolin of any body shape that has an oval sound hole

A = body shape/style

Bruce, you don't list where you're located, so forgive me if in your area oval hole mandolins are indeed referred to as A hole mandolins. For myself when someone refers to an A style mandolin it means body style, not soundhole shape.

Cheers,
Jill

[JeffD]

It is hard to argue that this would sound better on an f hole arch top mandolin.

[michaelpthompson]

Ok, here's a choice that is clearly "outside the box" for ITM: National Reso-phonic RM-1! I am seriously thinking of one for large sessions where any other mandolin is lost amongst the fiddles. These puppies are LOUD! But amazingly sweet in tone - not metallic sounding at all. So my question is, would you be asked to leave it at home if you brought it to your local session?

Well, there are sessions and there are seisúns :-).

As several people have pointed out, the mandolin is not a "traditional" Irish instrument in the first place, and any group that will welcome tenor banjos can't have too much problem with a resonator mandolin. However, you sometimes run into the TRAD police (I've heard them called less complimentary things.) who believe that the rules of the session are set in stone forever. They might have a problem with it, but fortunately for me, I play with more open-minded people.

If you think about it, beyond the harp, flute and Uilleann pipes, most of what is played in sessions today does not have its roots in Ireland or Celtic tradition anyway. The violin is basically of Italian origin, but even hard-core TRAD people don't have problems with fiddles in a seisún. A lot depends on what point in time you set the rules in stone.

[michaelpthompson]

oval hole mandolins are indeed referred to as A hole mandolins?

I just hope I'm never referred to as an A-hole mandolinist. ;-)