Setup?

[jlb.9889]

In many threads people have mentioned that a mandolin has to have a good setup in order for it to play well. From what I can tell, this includes adjusting the bridge and lowering the action. As a novice, I was wondering if anyone could give me tips for how to go about this? How do I know how the bridge should be adjusted? Would I be better off taking it to a professional and having them show me how to do it? Thanks for whatever help or suggestions you can give.

[JeffD]

A good set up would include adjusting the bridge and neck to get the right action, checking the condition of the nut slots and bridge slots and frets to determine if they need work, new strings, graphite in the slots perhaps, and like that.

I know for myself, I would always take it to a professional to have it done. Every time. I could get and learn the steps involved from many sources, but I would not know how to solve the problems that often arise along the way. As soon as things evolved away from the script I would be lost.

And I have no ambition in that direction. I just want to play the dern thing.

[Big Joe]

A good setup is a WHOLE lot more than just the action or bridge adjustment. It is making the entire instrument work together the best it can, and this is not something you are likely to be able to do properly by yourself, or learn by just watching a good luthier do it one time. Every mandolin, and every situation is different so knowing what needs to be done is learned by experience.

Remember that a good guitar setup man may be terrible for the mandolin. They are way too different and if he/ she is not experienced with mandolins you would do better finding one that does know mandolins inside and out. Every kind of instrument is much different from the others and need someone who knows those instruments very well. That does not mean a good repair person for a mandolin cannot also be good on guitars or other instruments, just that you need to know out front if they have experience and knowledge in that field.

[Markus]

I agree with Jeff and Joe.

I think it's worth having a pro do it once so you know how good that mandolin can get.

In my thinking, it is best to have a talented professional go over it thoroughly in the beginning. Getting it to it's top playable [and sounding] configuration is something you want done well at least to start out with - if just to confirm the frets are level/good, bridge is fine and seated well, the truss rod, nut, nut and bridge string slots are all appropriately adjusted/sized.

Then you get towards adjusting action and intonation at the bridge - while I can do this and have done minor action tweaks and adjusted the bridge to get intonation dead on .... it is not something I enjoy or do very quickly. Once again, when you're just getting going I'd let someone else get it dead on - and then go from there.

I would discuss intonation correction at the bridge and such adjustments with the repair person when you meet with them - perhaps they can provide more of a hands-on demo than the various web materials available discussing these adjustments [searching here and online gave me very good instructions though].

Down the road, you can do these - but until you're sure that all the other parts are setup perfectly you probably aren't going to improve things.

[jlb.9889]

Thanks everyone for your input!! I would love to be able to do things like this myself, hopefully one day I can get to that point.

[Rick Crenshaw]

jlb,

My two cents: Spend the time to find out who does a good set up and take the time and energy to get the mandolin to that person. Too often some electric guitar set up dude at the local chain music mart assures you that they can do the set up. Don't buy it. See how many mandolins are in the shop. If there aren't any... back out quickly. If there are some, find one that seems to play easily without buzzing all the way up and down the neck. Check that the open A and the A on the twelfth fret are both A's (octaves). Then take it to the guy and ask him what needs to be done on that mandolin. Then .... MAYBE you can try him/her.

Personally, I'd be willing to drive or ship to a set up pro recommended by someone here on the Cafe. There are folks all over the country (and in other countries) on this board. Someone will be able to recommend a set up pro somewhere near you, I'm sure.

The set up is critical to enjoying the mandolin. Even on a starter mandolin.

[Markus]

Well said Rick

[bmac]

If you bought your instrument mail order or from some sort of discount seller you most likely have an un-settup mandolin.

Good settup takes time and "time is money" so most mandos are not well set up from the factory . many beginners won't even notice lack of settup but will feel it in their fingertips very shortly and eventually will notice that it doesn't sound quit right when played up the neck. So many beginners give up before they even realize they are playing instruments which are not set up.

The problem with some of the advice above is that the money you saved by buying a discount mandolin will be spent in having it properly adjusted by a professional. Therefore you have a cheap mandolin with an expensive settup. No savings there.

Detailed information is available on the internet. Frank Ford discusses the how-tos of instrumnet settup on frets.com and if you are reasonably handy you can do it yourself. If not handy then you have learned a pretty good lesson on instrument purchasing. Sometimes cheap is expensive.

[Steve Ostrander]

Also not necessarily lowering the string height, it could involve raising it.

[bmac]

Another note:

Mail-order discounters know nothing about instruments and couldn't care less. Settup is not their job and they wouldn't know how anyway.

Buying retail from a place like Mandolin Brothers in Staten Island, NY (and there are lots of others) makes a whole lot of sense as the instrument you recieve will be well adjusted for immediate play. The last thing they want is to have a sold instrument sent back by an irate customer.

[Willie Poole]

If there is luthier in your area by all means take it to him/her and while you are there ask if they could give you some lessons in lutherie and after working in their shop under their supervision you will pick up many things and maybe be able to do your own work some day in the near future...It`s always good to have an inexpensive mando lying around to try things on...I have gone through four of them and now do my own set ups and a few for friends that trust me but it is not a simple thing to just do off of the top of your head, also takes some special tools to allow you to work on different brands of mandos.....Good luck with this project.....

Willie

[Rick Crenshaw]

jlb said he was a novice. He didn't say he had a cheap mandolin. Regardless, if the mandolin sounds fair to good, a good set up is worth it.

Of course one could find out that there are major problems with the mandolin neck, etc. Then you start thinking about cost of repair vs. new instrument. But jlb didn't go there. He just wants a set up.

[Big Joe]

A good luthier will check over your instrument throughly before doing anything and will let you know exactly what it needs to work properly. I cannot speak for others, but we never charge for that. Then we always give an exact price for the work out front. I don't do estimates. I've been at this for a very long time. If I don't know what it will take me to do a job after this much experience I should be the one to lose, not my customer. I will note what has to be done, and anything else I see that may be optional. It is up to the customer to chose any or all of the work to be done. I am busy enough I don't need to upsell work for no reason. If it does not need something, I'm not going to try selling it. If it does need it I will tell the customer. If there are options that can be helpful I may suggest them, but certainly it is optional to the customer.

When your mandolin goes to someone for a setup they should do the same. They should tell you what it really needs and any thing else that may help. The end decision is always up to the owner and I find they like knowing the truth and what options there may be. If it needs nothing I will also tell them that.

While going over the web for help on setup is a cool thing, there is a lot more than just what you can get off the internet to making your mandolin play its best. Even if you are very handy you cannot possibly get the optimal output and playability from your mandolin if you do not have extensive experience. If you followed all the hints available you may not have much better end result than the original. There are just too many things to have to adjust properly and each instrument is different. Setup is one of those things worth having done professionally. If you practice, you may do well at keeping it in good playing shape between setups, but ti should go to a good luthier from time to time to get checked over no matter. I don't try to tune up my truck and I don't try to fly the jet on a trip. I would not do that well at either. The pilot or mechanic would never be able to do what I do as well either. I don't do nuerosurgery and my surgeon does not repair mandolins. He certainly has skilled hands and is very bright, but he's smart enough to let me fix his mandolin. I'm smart enough to let him do surgery.

The cost of a good luthier is much less than constant unsatisfaction with an instrument you've invested good money and hate to play.

[Malcolm G.]

Gotta love Big Joe! Thanks, Mr. Vest.

I'd like to add:

A lot to be said for having an instrument made for you by a luthhier - you can bet it'll be properly set-up if the builder gets to know what you want, how you play, what you play etc etc.

If thrilled by the build, I would then use that luthier down the road exclusively for that (and possibly) other instruments.

I love to tinker, but would never know if it could sound better .

I built a Saga kit for example, and have tinkered the poor thing to death. I hear a lot of improvement, and am quite proud of my humble "upgrades". However, I plan to take it with me when I go to pick up the new build, and have my builder look it over.

Then I get to come home with two properly set up mandolins.

[Big Joe]

I am not putting any builders down or trying to diss them and will not post any particular builders, but you cannot assume a luthier building you a mandolin will assure it will be setup correctly or play its best. There is a lot to consider in how they build the instrument and many are good at the construction part, but don't do as well in the setup department. It is good to have a nice instrument built by a qualified luthier, but just as with any instrument, figure a good setup as something seperate from the build itself. You may well have a luthier that is great at setup, but we do a LOT of setup work and refrets on mandolins and guitars from other well built instruments from builders who are not that good at fret work or setup. Again, not ever going to name names or trying to disrespect any builder, just sharing what we see all the time.

A good example is the electric strat style guitar a customer of mine brings me. He paid very high dollars to get this instrument built. It was by a very respected builder of electric guitars. The problem was that it was extremely hard to play and hurt his fingers to play it. When we examined it the fingerboard was not level, the frets were oversized and not dressed properly, and the nut was way high and the saddles were not set correctly. He build a nice guitar, but it had to have a complete plane and refret and then the nut and bridge worked on to play correctly. He is now one happy customer and loves his guitar. It is a nice guitar, but he had to pay good money to get it to work properly.

[Malcolm G.]

Oops,

I guess "if thrilled" would have to be the qualifier in my submission.

If not thrilled it would be on to phase two - a set-up specialist.

Thanks for sorting me out Big Joe!

[Willie Poole]

Big Joe....If a person was to send a mandolin to another part of the country and have it set up would it be different when it was mailed back to him? I am refering to climate changes I guess more than anything....I played my mandolin the night before I left to come to Florida and when I got here and attempted to play it the intonation seemed off....I am not a professional by any means but do do a pretty good set up such as bridge placement and nut slots so I managed to get it back to where it sounds OK now....Could it just have been the change in the weather? If climate does affect them that much then having a set up closer to home would be the way to go wouldn`t it?

Thanks....Willie

[dochardee]

I've used Big Joe for setup work before and his work is top shelf. Definitely recommended. Can't comment on the weather issue, when I shipped to Nashville it was summer there and also in Florida where I live.

[Rick Cadger]

Just listen to Joe. This stuff is in his blood.

[Big Joe]

Hey Willie... there can be an issue with temperature and humidity issues if there is a substantial difference from where the work was done and where you keep it. It is no different from traveling on the road with an instrument either. Some mandolins are more prone to these changes than others. A lot has to do with the stability of the wood itself. If the wood is reasonably stable then it is rarely an issue. If it is not that well stabilized then anything can happen.

We do work for people all around the world and have to be cognizant of these issues when we do the work. We do our best to factor in these issues as much as humanly possible before we ship the instrument back to the owner. Rarely is there ever a problem. Even then it is a pretty easy alteration to make to bring things back into line and we can usually walk the owner through that adjustment.

Whether you get a better result from shipping it elsewhere or having it done locally is really hard to answer because getting a great setup is not that likely in many locations. While setup seems pretty simple to some, it is really pretty complex and involves many thing to get the optimal result. If you feel your local luthier is capable of getting you what you want, then by all means use them. If you are not that convinced, it may be better to ship it to someone you do think can get its best and then if minor adjustment needs doing and you are comfortable that you could do that with coaching, then go for it. Only you can tell what you are most comfortable with. We do a LOT of work from Florida and don't seem to have much problem with changes needing to be made. There is usually not a lot of difference in temperature but more so humidity from Nashville to most of Florida. We are a bit drier, but not that dry.

Hope this helps. If you have more questions, feel free to ask.

[Willie Poole]

Thanks Big Joe...The main reason I asked the question is because I brought a really great mandolin with me to Florida from Maryland and it was in good shape when I played it the night before leaving Md. and when I got it out down here it noted off slightly....There is a difference in the humitity and it just need a little tweeking which I was able to do....Thanks again....

[Ivan Kelsall]

Temperature & humidity are possibly the only criteria that would change due to shipping from one area of the US to another. If somebody such as Big Joe were to do a complete set up ie.truss rod adjustment & bridge height / placement for action & intonation,also checking the nut & bridge saddle out for any 'binding',i don't think any of those things would be affected due to shipping. Room temp.certainly affects Mandolins - my 2 instruments go sharp when cold & flat when warm. I can take one out of it's case & i need to lower the pitch slightly to get it in tune,an hour later & i need to raise the pitch as it's gone flat due to getting warm. The tone also changes,for the better,
Ivan

[Salty Dog]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the "height" or action. Some people prefer very low (close to the frets) and some prefer high. There is also string spacing, both between the pairs and between the strings. There may be standards that are accepted but there are obvious variations, just as there are variations on neck width at the nut (some prefer wide and some like narrow). The preferred action becomes a very personal thing as mandolin skill progresses, so I would suggest that, when you get the setup that is perfect for you, ask your luthier to measure it carefully so that it can be repeated on your next mandolin. BRW#12 has been "tweaked" by my luthier to be perfect for me and while #61 is close, it still needs a tiny bit of adjustment bo be perfect for me. On the next trip to the luthier for #61, I'll take #12 along so that the luthier has a reference to measure. This discussion reminds me of a story about a well known professional basketball player who complained that the basket height was low. The maintenance people checked the height and, sure enough, the basket was 1/16" low (on a height of 10')! Little things can make a big difference.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote from Big Joe - "...It was by a very respected builder of electric guitars". Really !!. With the defects you outlined Joe,it's hard to think how this builder gained his respect,unless that one was 'rogue' - it can happen.
Big Joe is right in what he says re.a set up. A well set up instrument can be far more that just the sum of it's parts,& that goes for any instrument,although with Guitars & Mandolins there are less 'variables' that can be had with a Banjo,where so many things can be adjusted by the player,to suit his / her individual taste.
Experience counts a lot as well & again Big Joe is right. I had a problem with an "A" style Mandolin that i used to own.The action was very high & couldn't be lowered using the original bridge. I got a new one free of charge from the maker,only to find that above the 8th / 9th frets,it rattled & buzzed. I took it to my local luthier,a very well respected guy who has many pro.clients. He took a look at the neck,sighted along it & told me that it was warped - i couldn't see a darned thing !. There's nothing to compare with long experience. It's like the old story of a guy who owns a factory. One of his machines wasn't working so he calls in the repair guy.
The repair guy looks at the machine,hits it with his hammer & it begins to work. " That'll be $1,000 sir " the repair guy tells the factory owner. " What ! - a $1,000 just for hitting the machine with a hammer ? ". " No,for hitting it with a hammer in the RIGHT PLACE ",
Ivan

[Willie Poole]

Salty dog, Not to get off of the subject but at one time I pitched for a baseball team in the minor leagues and I made mention that the pitchers mound was not the correct distance from home plate and was laughed at, but I insisted that it was, so the manager brought out a tape measure and laid it down on the ground and he found that it was in fact only 60 feet instead of 60 ft. 6 ins like the rules state....I was traded right after that episode too....I got the last laught tho, I pitched a one hitter against his team about a week later.....DON`T MESS WITH MY EYE SIGHT....Willie