Almost give up

[catmandu2]

Catman I don't want to go at it with you, I really don't. But we are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular point. With respect to imposing an a group with high expectations and little tolerance I know what you mean. I have been on both sides of that one many times. One has to sometimes sit in the back and listen. Perhaps play gently what one can, in a low volume.

But I would argue, and I think that was in part Allen's point as well, that even the experience of hardly playing much while sitting with a group of very experienced players is very valuable, and rich with learning opportunities.

And while it would be wonderful if folks learned the rudiments (of timing etc.) on their own before playing out at a jam, this is something (to paraphrase Alexander Hamilton) more ardently to be wished than actually to be expected. The real danger with it is that folks would hesitate to get out there and jam. Performance anxiety, meeting new people, living up to the expectations that your fine instrument might engender in the other musicians, its all difficult at first. So I would not want to make it easier for folks to feel "I am not ready" by implying a minimum competency before one can attend a jam.

Certainly there is a minimum competency before one can meaningfully contribute to a jam. But not to attend, to support, to try ones abilities as appropriate, and perhaps more accurately asses one's abilities and progress, thats for everyone.

But perhaps I am a total weenie. I can find no way tell someone, or even imply with a gesture or body language: "go home and practice your timing till you're ready to play with us". It would break my heart's heart. Whether its true or not.

We are probably never going to get it exactly right identifying the moment one is ready to go out and try playing with others. So if we acknowledge that we are going to error, I will error on the side of encouraging newbies to attend jams way before they are really ready. They can do all that metronome at home with the computer stuff too, but even that will be more productive if they know have a jam load of encouraging musicians waiting next Tuesday.

I think the Alexander Hamilton reference may be more applicable in the instance of finding an accomodating group when one hasn't rudiments together--than in the basic skill of learning how to keep time with a metronome.

Receiving feedback from peers in musical situations is of course beneficial. The OP indicated that THIS group gave him THIS feedback: ...apparently i wasnt to good for them but for the first time ever playing with people that played songs faster then i imagined my rhythm was terrible!

In musician's lingo, that means head back to the woodshed for a spell.

It's not a particularly good idea to try to play beyond one's abilities in a group if the expectations of that group are a standard of basic musicianship. The result could, in fact, be counterproductive--possibly even compelling an aspiring player to "almost give up." Bluegrass jams tend to be less forgiving than OT jams, as well.

Nor is it a particularly good idea to learn timekeeping from a group whose time keeping is suspect--which may be the case in groups more accomodating of players with poor time. A surefire way to learn surefire timekeeping is with use of a surefire timekeeping device.

The easiest, quickest, and most efficient way to learn to play with good time is to learn how to use timekeeping devices--a plethora of models are available. With regards to online sources--in the words of the hot young percussion players in the salsa band I play in: "why not use the resources available?--you're cheating yourself if you don't." This is what people your age, Shawn, who aspire to advanced-level playing are doing between jams. While you're searching for a suitable-level group, do some woodshedding. You won't always have access to a suitable group with whom to experiment, make mistakes, and receive feedback, but you can study on your own at 3 am so that you're better prepared the next time you get with that group, or advance to the higher-level group. Reliance upon the tradition of oral transmission and "group study" is quaint, but not the most effective. Music is not rocket science, as has been mentioned, but the way to get ahead is to do your homework, nonetheless. And if your ambition is to be the star soloist, you best be woodsheddin'--it's what your peers are doing.

Playing with good feel is another, broader matter--something more nuanced, that playing with and among others will certainly help you acquire. But you must learn to play with good time, first, before those whose playing you emulate will want to have you play with them, in my experience. The inclination is to try to do it all at once, but an unanalytical approach will impede your progress and at times feel overwhelming and confusing, as Lonelyhearts mentioned. You already know what you want to sound like, so you must figure out how to get there. If the group with whom you played hadn't given you that feedback--if they don't have standards--then you perhaps wouldn't think they sounded so good. It was a good test, and now you know what to study for before you take that test again. We typically don't go from middle school straight into college.

Don't get discouraged, and minimize feelings of discouragement by avoiding inappropriate group situations. Embrace feedback, take a step back, learn. Even advanced-level players work on rudiments when they feel they need to. Identify your weaknesses, isolate the problem, and work on it. You'll be progressing much faster.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Shawn,

I think you ought to ease up. It sounds to me that you stress yourself with a lot many things. When I started to learn to play there was no internet, records were difficult to come by, cds were nonexistant, where I live(d) practically nobody has heard about that there bluegrass (taking it either for blues or "whaaat?").

Think, you´re not alone. You have a milion recources. You have acess to CD-s (I guess) you could pick out the ones that please you best, sit down find out the tunes you want to play most, find out the key they´re in, learn the chord changes and play with the cd. That´s old school but I think it´s a very valuable way of learning. If you master that, you are ready to pick with about anyone. It may take a while but you´ll get there.

Go to festivals and jam with people. I can´t believe that there´s no festival scene where you live. There must be people that you can pick with, that you can drill for information, that you can get together with etc.

[catmandu2]

Shawn,
When I started to learn to play there was no internet, records were difficult to come by, cds were nonexistant, where I live(d) practically nobody has heard about that there bluegrass (taking it either for blues or "whaaat?").

Think, you´re not alone. You have a milion recources. You have acess to CD-s (I guess) you could pick out the ones that please you best, sit down find out the tunes you want to play most, find out the key they´re in, learn the chord changes and play with the cd. That´s old school but I think it´s a very valuable way of learning. If you master that, you are ready to pick with about anyone. It may take a while but you´ll get there.

Good heavens, yes. I'd nearly forgotten (since the advent of digital technology) that standard practice was learning from records -- lifting that needle and replaying passages over and over... Crude, but effective.

[Shawn Gambrel]

I dont have as much time to practice is another thing i have ran into... School started back, then i got my license so i gotta cruise a little bit but then it leaves me like a few minutes to play ... Im also trying to find me a job too

[catmandu2]

I dont have as much time to practice is another thing i have ran into... School started back, then i got my license so i gotta cruise a little bit but then it leaves me like a few minutes to play ... Im also trying to find me a job too

Ah yes...nature calls.

[Shawn Gambrel]

Ah yes...nature calls.

Unfortunately

[JEStanek]

When the playing becomes a priority, I think, if you take some of the advice given here to heart, you will see marked improvement. Until then, take it easy on yourself and try and fit into the jams you attend courteously.

Jamie

[300win]

I dont have as much time to practice is another thing i have ran into... School started back, then i got my license so i gotta cruise a little bit but then it leaves me like a few minutes to play ... Im also trying to find me a job too

Well you are the only one who can decide what your priorities are. If you wanta learn to play music good, you might have to cut down on your "cruising" and other hobbies. Learning to play a instrument is not easy, it will not just fall in your lap, you have to put in time, and really want to do it more than anything else that interest you. A few minutes left to play ? You sholud be on it a minimum of 1 1/2 hours per day. Back when I was learning { and still am after 45 years}, I put in about 4 hours everyday on practice. I started when I was 10 years old, and yea I worked, grew up on a farm, and when I turned 16 and got my license I worked nights while going to school, but I still practiced around 4 hours per day. And now thare is not a day goes by without practise, trying to learn new stuff, sop you see Shaun, it takes dedication. You should be able to learn fast if you'll just buckle down and do it, and like I said you have a great instrument to begin with which should make it easier to learn. You did not sound bad on the video, but as mentioned above work on the basics, timing, in tune. You are not going to learn just by talking about it, YOU HAVE TO DO IT !!!

[Mattg]

It's OK to tap your foot, sway your body, and get into the groove of the song. Rhythm and tempo will probably work better for you if you do that.

Yes! I took some classes from Andy Falco (guitarist for the Infamous Stringduster) and he offered this same advice. Tapping the foot is ok but he recommended kind of getting your body into the rhythm as well. I've seen him perform several times and he's always somehow moving to the beat.

This is why I play standing up most of the time, especially with the guitar but even with the mandolin.

Personally, I think rhythm is more important in Bluegrass than trying to cram too many notes into a phrase.

[chris scott]

Yep, we can avoid it like a cactus, but we got go home and practice.