Banjo's too loud?

[Duane Graves]

Do we mandolin players really like Banjo's persay or are they generally played too loud most of the time for our liking in a bluegrass setting, drowning out our sweet tones? What are your feelings?

Duane.....

[journeybear]

Did somebody say something? Speak up, please!

[AlanN]

Um, it's the picker, not the instrument. Guitar can be too loud.

I remember an i-view with Monroe, when he was telling about the up-coming tune My Last Days On Earth. He was asked what instrumentation would be on this new tune he was talking about. He said "Well, there could be a guitar on it, if he was quiet with it."

Amen.

[catmandu2]

I presume that you're talking about bluegrass? Or perhaps some four-string wackadoo styles?

I've got my two nylon-string 5-strings parked next to the fireplace to entertain guests during the week. Their sound is nice for a living room concert. If I'm in a bigger room, or playing in a seven-piece brass band, I go with steel strings. Banjos are great for entertaining, along with accordians, because they can easily be played loud. But they don't have to.

But generally, if you've got a tone ring, and .18 ga. fingerpicks...yeah, you're probably after some volume.

[Jack Roberts]

I went to see Bela Fleck and the Flecktones on Friday. I'd say his banjo was too quiet. They had way too much muddy-sounding low amplitude noise coming from the Wooten brothers at times. Clearly Futureman and Victor are brilliant performers, but the sound system produced undefined mushy sounds at the lowest frequencies. It could have been where I was sitting... It was too bad that there was no mandolinist sitting in this time. The Tuvan Throat Singers stole the show.

[catmandu2]

The Tuvan Throat Singers stole the show.

Hate to start derailing this thread already...but, one of the most compelling shows I've seen was a Bulgarian woman's choir. Not throat singing, but harmonically kind of similar in some ways.

[MikeEdgerton]

The Tuvan Throat Singers stole the show.

There is some guy named Mike Edgerton associated with Tuvan Throat Singing.

[foldedpath]

Um, it's the picker, not the instrument. Guitar can be too loud.

Agreed. I've noticed that banjo players who also play guitar or fiddle, are often more sensitive to the volume issues. They know how to blend with other instruments because they've been on the other side of the fence (the non-dark side?).

[Markus]

There is some guy named Mike Edgerton associated with Tuvan Throat Singing.

Really? Let's not derail the thread, but got an old thread about it?

I don't know if the Tuvan throat singing can be too loud

[allenhopkins]

The design of the banjo makes it inherently loud; it's a drum with strings, and we all know how loud drums can be. In the early years of the 20th century, there were all sorts of technological banjo improvements to make the instrument louder: tone rings, resonators, steel strings, even frets! (Having a little metal bar to "stop" the string decreases the vibrational loss to the softer finger pad.)

If you read some of S S Stewart's newsletters, around 1890-1900, the testimonial letters he printed were often about how loud his instruments were, enabling the banjoist to compete with pianos, trumpets etc. So increased volume was an explicit goal of the banjo builder.

One of the major dilemmas of string band music styles, is balancing the volume levels of disparate instruments. You'll find old-timey banjoists who dampen the tone of their instruments with a cloth inside the head, which makes for a "plunky" sound, but also cuts down volume. I'd venture to say that bluegrass as we know it in performance, wouldn't be possible without electronic amplification, which allows such balancing, either by adjusting distance from a single microphone, or by using separate mics with differing levels.

Given inherent volume level differences, it's possible to compensate by using different playing techniques. Good ensemble banjoists know how to pick farther from the bridge when "comping" behind a vocal or another's break. Good instrumentalists of any type know how to "give the soloist some room" and not drown him/her out. On the other hand, such knowledge and taste isn't universal even among the pros; I remember a Nashville Grass concert where Benny Martin fiddled away through all of Kenny Ingram's banjo breaks. If I can interpret body language and facial expressions, Ingram would have strangled Martin with his own bow hair if he could have.

[Duane Graves]

Agreed. I've noticed that banjo players who also play guitar or fiddle, are often more sensitive to the volume issues. They know how to blend with other instruments because they've been on the other side of the fence (the non-dark side?).

....good point, hadn't thought of that. Thank you.

[Duane Graves]

....well done, Allen. Very informative as usual. Thank you, learned much in your post...Duane

[MikeEdgerton]

The banjo player in my band is very good at taking it down a few notches and also very aware of where he is standing in relationship to the mics on stage. He knows when to step back and when to step forward.

[Jack Roberts]

Really? Let's not derail the thread, but got an old thread about it?

I don't know if the Tuvan throat singing can be too loud

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...singers-of-tuv

[GRW3]

I appreciate a banjo player from whom I can hear a melody. Too often it's just roll, roll, roll. I think that it's an artifact of training. Banjo players aren't taught to play the melody and then overlay the roll. They're taught the rolls and melody at the same time and the melody seems to suffer. I have the same problem with a lot of mandolin TAB. Please show me the melody then the ornaments (if at all).

[catmandu2]

Well of course there are different styles of banjo playing: there is a melodic style (a la Bill Keith, for example) of even three-finger style that emphasizes just what you mention, George. Given that 5-string banjo is typically played fingerstyle, there tends to be much use of arpeggiation (rolls) which tends to produce a strong rhythmic element. Fingerstyle guitar does much the same, except that since it has greater bass range, the picking patterns tend to be alternating bass and ostinato patterns. A player like Leo Kottke approaches fingerstyle guitar more like a banjo player--thumb lead syncopations and such--whereas fingerstyle players like Bert Jansch or Pierre Bensusan may tend to employ less overt rhythmic emphasis, etc.

[allenhopkins]

...Banjo players aren't taught to play the melody and then overlay the roll. They're taught the rolls and melody at the same time and the melody seems to suffer...

Most bluegrass banjo instrumentals -- and I mean tunes written to be played on the 5-string, finger-picked banjo, not adaptations of fiddle or other tunes -- are written around a series of rolls, with emphasized "melody" notes. So "rolls and melody at the same time" is what they are. Does anyone go around whistling the melody of Foggy Mountain Breakdown or Remington Ride?

The development of "melodic" playing by Bill Keith, Bobby Thompson and others, was an attempt to use bluegrass banjo technique to actually play the melodies of fiddle tunes; it involved a lot of "deconstructing" the roll patterns, re-doing them with different finger orderings, performing heresies like fretting the 5th string, and, frankly, sometimes rewriting the melodies to fit the limitations of the instrument and the technique. When Keith started playing Devil's Dream and Sailor's Hornpipe with Monroe's band, he raised a furor among banjoists (the Chris Thile of his day?). Now 75% of bluegrass banjoists at least throw in a "chromatic" lick here and there, and the squabble between "straight Scruggs" players and the "Keith style" players seems to have largely died away. Of course, I don't pick up the Banjo Newsletter any more; maybe they're still feudin'...

[catmandu2]

Of course, I don't pick up the Banjo Newsletter any more; maybe they're still feudin'...

Of course they are. But there is a solution to this dilemma:

1) play clawhammer (or other fingerstyles)

2) don't play bluegrass

[Mattg]

Do we mandolin players really like Banjo's persay or are they generally played too loud most of the time for our liking in a bluegrass setting, drowning out our sweet tones? What are your feelings?

Duane.....

I'm not sure I understand the "we" and "our" stuff in your question? It's almost like you want us, as a group, to decide what you should like. Idonknow. It seems like you have a specific issue or situation.

IMHO the banjo is essential to the sound of Bluegrass. Yes there is alot of great BG without it but I prefer it. I've heard some very sweet tones comming from the banjo. I know several banjo players who are second to none when it comes to proper dynamics and control when it comes to playing in a group setting. I've been schooled by em.

Listen to the Punch Bros., the Infamous String Dusters, or Old School Freight Train for some very harmonious banjo playing.

What it boils down to is that any musician can be loud and disruptive no matter what they play. Honestly, I've seen more problems with a few fiddlers.

[journeybear]

I had the same problem, Matt. I think a thread should start with a post that outlines the OPs viewpoint, and not just asks for opinions. It helps set the tenor of the thread, and gives readers a clearer idea of how to respond.

... If you read some of S S Stewart's newsletters, around 1890-1900, the testimonial letters he printed were often about how loud his instruments were, enabling the banjoist to compete with pianos, trumpets etc. So increased volume was an explicit goal of the banjo builder. ...

Not sure of the exact time frame, but I think pretty soon thereafter instruments like the banjolin and tenor banjo were created that enabled mandolin players to play at similar volume levels. This came at a time when the mandolin craze was beginning to fade, and mandolinists had to adapt or go the way of the dodo.

Of course that doesn't help someone playing mandolin in a bluegrass setting.

[bgjunkie]

All I know is that I learned a valuable lesson early one - don't sit directly across from a banjo player at a jam.

I made a comment about not being able to hear myself at a jam one time, thinking my mandolin was not very loud and some told my to try sitting somewhere other than in front of the banjo player next time. Made a world of difference.

[Steve Ostrander]

To me, all banjos sound like they're being played with a clawhammer.

JOKING!...I'M JOKING!!

[Duane Graves]

I had the same problem, Matt. I think a thread should start with a post that outlines the OPs viewpoint, and not just asks for opinions. It helps set the tenor of the thread, and gives readers a clearer idea of how to respond.

This is obviously good advice about posting and being clearer as to intent....perhaps in the future I can appropriate it....Thanks, Journeybear, for your experiential wisdom on this and your posts and replys in general....Duane.

[fredfrank]

I used to play banjo in a band where the mandolin was always louder than the banjo. I really think it's more the operator than the instrument.

Too bad more people don't learn etiquette at the same time they learn the licks.

Oh, and yeah, I like banjos when played with courtesy and taste.

[John Adrihan]

If it sounds like the Beverly Hillbillies theme song, I don't care how soft played it is, ITS'S TOO LOUD