The Improvisational brain

[OldSausage]

Yes, I think JonZ is right, it helps to be the kind of supernerd who will spend years getting every tiny aspect of their technique in order, and then be happy to fool around with the end result as if it were a child's game. But oddly the two things seem to go together quite often in folks you meet.

[kudzugypsy]

what is missing with a great number of beginning improvisors is the RHYTHMIC aspect of improvisation - this, IMO, is more "you have "inner" rhythm or you dont" and its hard to teach someone this aspect. i would even say that most of the stringing 8th/16th notes together in endless lines is more ROTE than improvisation, now that is a talent in itself, but I always base improvisation from a rhythmic beginning and it is more natural and rewarding.

[farmerjones]

i think it's a balance of curiosity, and the ability play, as in child-like play.
Even old feline cats know and understand the importance of play.
So true, civilzation has frowned upon anything but cold maturity, the earlier the better.
The fear of foolishness. Reputation. Credibility. You're supposed to grow up fast, then what? Makes for a good tax paying drone. Sorry for the mini-rant.

[Charlieshafer]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; the BEST tutorial I can imagine for improvising is Sonny Rollin's version of Tennessee Waltz on his "Falling in Love With Jazz" cd. We give that to all our students when trying to "figure it out." Starts with the simple melody, then gradually disassembles it, plays with the timing and phrasing, gets a little more radical, then reassembles it into a prefect resolution. Of course, Sonny is one of the all-time great improvisers, and yes, it's a tenor sax, but it's an absolute textbook.

[EdSherry]

I remember reading David Sudnow's "The Ways of the Hand" many years ago, in which a psychologist described his experience in learning how to play improvizational jazz piano. Very interesting reading. New (less technical) version available here:

http://www.amazon.com/Ways-Hand-Davi.../dp/0262691612

(NFI.)

[farmerjones]

Yeah, just do what Ella does.

[catmandu2]

what is missing with a great number of beginning improvisors is the RHYTHMIC aspect of improvisation - this, IMO, is more "you have "inner" rhythm or you dont" and its hard to teach someone this aspect.

When working with young children, rhythmic elements are a fundamental aspect. I use a variety of games based on rhythmic structure and easy improvisation (making up elements at designated intervals). Also, with my own children, I use conga drumming fundamentals. When they're older I'll move them to the kit as well. I didn't get into drumming myself until I was about 15 years old--and it was awkward initially--but soon it becomes second nature. If one drums, it's an opportunity to break down, analyze, and exploit rhythmic aspects of music--which are of course fundamental.

Another way to work on rhythmic sense and coordination is through sports activities.

[Markus]

Rhythm is so often forgotten, I agree.

I find it terribly difficult to improvise and effectively use both melodic and rhythmic elements mixed together - but get the greatest results [in my opinion] when both are involved.

While I'm a mediocre hand drummer at best, the hand drum lessons and sessions I've took in my 20's fundamentally changed my playing guitar and mandolin for the better.

Those master drummers of Ghana had no clue that I'd be using their one on one instruction sessions to play bluegrass, but I can imagine their huge grins if they heard my mandolin right hand.

I can't tell the number of times I've played a samba or other such beat in my right hand rhythm - and how often I will have other people on the stage look up when I do something rhythmically interesting when some previous fingerbusting left hand move didn't appear to be heard.

It's amazing how a simple line, with the rhythm played with, can sound amazing. When I listen to Jethro on Swing Low Sweet Mandolin - his playing seems so amazingly simple, but while the left hand fingering is amazing - to me it's the rhythm that makes the tunes sing.

It never gets too far in left field - yet is full of improv on a more subtle bent.

[catmandu2]

Yeah, I'm definitely biased--being a drummer myself (and bassist), enjoying odd meter and participating in a variety of ethnic rhythmic study. But, I see the value of internalizing rhythmic elements. As bassists, we learn to do more with less. Drums too, but with bass of course we're concerned more with harmonic elements.

[Markus]

It goes a LONG way with my rhythm/backup playing. There's nothing better than having the soloist shoot you a smile as you're rhythm tweaks give them plenty of space to solo or helping them emphasize the beats they're toying with.

Playing rhythm well requires you to really listen, and the more listening often the better overall session for everyone.

That said, there's times when backup or rhythm calls for the absolute `straight man' and tweaks are not an improvement.

[OldSausage]

Oops

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

This just in from TED Talks, a neurosurgeon-musician looks at the improvisational brain with fMRI: http://www.ted.com/talks/charles_lim...m_medium=email

[catmandu2]

This just in from TED Talks, a neurosurgeon-musician looks at the improvisational brain with fMRI: http://www.ted.com/talks/charles_lim...m_medium=email

I like to think of the prefrontal lobe as the "jazz area" of the brain.

Regarding the neurological basis of innovation...a few things occurred to me while listening to this (other than the playing of Jarrett of course). Contemplating my own cycle of trading instruments: this week--fiddle and banjo; next week--woodwinds, bass, drums, keys...ad inf.

Aside from the stmulation, both tactile and mental, of having something fresh, when I pick up another instrument it impels me in a variety of ways...often akin, in some respects, to picking up an instrument for the first time, as would a child--experiencing the field anew, changing the context that the instrument and music is heard, felt, and played, and inspiring "play" or different (aka, creative) approaches. Changing context is a potent aspect in neurobehavior.

Limb talks about the process of a disassociation of the areas of the frontal cortex normally involved in exective functions that mediate impulses and inhibitions. My own experience with psychoactive substances which render this effect also demonstrate this phenomenon--enhancing abilities to "improvise" or free associate, etc. It's rather amazing how a substance can act--either by affecting serotonin uptake and other neurotransmission mechansims--on the brain's processes, with regards to improvisation. While not advocating drug use, one can vividly experience this effect and gain a sense of the potency of the affect of altered neurotransmission on processes such as improvisation.

[kristycar]

alllllrighty then

[MandoPheel]

David - thanks for the link to the fascinating article (and introduction to SEED Magazine). And thanks to Miss Lonelyhearts for the link to the TED talk (gotta love TED; but beware, once you start watching, it can make hours disappear without a trace). You never know what you're going to learn here at the Cafe.

As a forty-something year old, I'd like to think that my current efforts to learn scales, chords and progressions can, despite my advancing age, ultimately lead to some degree of musical fluency and improvisational skill. I suppose I keep pretending it's a possibility.......

[fanmando]

OS -

In my own case,being primarily a Banjo player,i always remember what Earl Scuggs said about something that happened when he was developing his style. He was 'improvising' on a tune & one of his family asked what he was playing.They couldn't recognise the tune, & told him that if he couldn't stick to the melody,he might as well give up. In everything that ES did,you could always follow the 'tune',& having taught myself Banjo,primarily from listening to ES,that's the way i do it,
Ivan

I have had some conversations with fiddle wizard Bobby Hicks, and he said the same thing. If you are playing in a coffeehouse for a dozen professional musicians, they might get it and be impressed. Otherwise, for a normal audience imagine if everyone else stopped playing and several knowledgeable but normal folks walked in-- if they couldn't pick up on what you're playing all by yourself, you're getting too far over everyone's head and need to rope it in before they go wandering off. This was advice from a showman's point-of-view.

Bobby can get out there on some pretty thin musical ice, and get home, but you almost never hear him do it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From russintexas - "that performance at anything less than a rockstar / professional athlete / etc"....... There's nothing intrinsically wrong with setting your personal goals as high as can be. It's far better to try to achieve such levels of skill & maybe fail a bit,than never to have tried for them in the first place.
In 46 years of Banjo playing ( standard Scruggs style) i've reached a high level of competence,sadly out of practice though due to 'Mandolin intrusion'. I set out to be as good as i could be & got there. On Mandolin, i want to acheive a similar level & i've set my standards high - will i get there ?,maybe i'm too old at 66,but i'll give it my best shot. At the very least,i won't fail without even having tried,
Ivan

[Don Julin]

I find it difficult to play anything without a certain amount of improvisation. I look at improvisation in a similar way to composition. In order to understand a composition, one needs an understanding of melody, song form, harmony (chords), key or keys, and a musical style in which your improvisation or composition stems from. (blues, rock, jazz, bluegrass, classical, celtic). This is where the musician really needs to put in the time, learning characteristics of styles well enough to be able to freely create music that sounds like that style. As mandolin players we need the ability to play long passages of quick, even notes by using good right hand technique. At the same time, we need to be able to know where you are in the song at ALL times. Choosing not to play the melody does not mean we don't need to know the melody. We may be basing our new improvised melody on a counterpoint or a chord progression that was intended to enhance the original melody. I know this sound like a lot of stuff to think about but it all boils down to: Know the song, and play what you hear in your head while using proper technique. Here is a video I made to help one of my students begin to improvise on an old standard fiddle tune.

[catmandu2]

That's one of the very attractive things about music for me too, Don. For the first half of my life (more, actually), I did the classical thing, which of course is NOT improv-based. And, while it helped foster a deep appreciation for the music, it was not nearly as fun as the non-classical music I play now.

The two approaches are soooo different--in their technical aspects and mental processes.

[JeffD]

The two approaches are soooo different--in their technical aspects and mental processes.

Not to mention their goals.

[bratsche]

I find it difficult to play anything without a certain amount of improvisation. I look at improvisation in a similar way to composition. In order to understand a composition, one needs an understanding of melody, song form, harmony (chords), key or keys, and a musical style in which your improvisation or composition stems from. (blues, rock, jazz, bluegrass, classical, celtic). This is where the musician really needs to put in the time, learning characteristics of styles well enough to be able to freely create music that sounds like that style. As mandolin players we need the ability to play long passages of quick, even notes by using good right hand technique. At the same time, we need to be able to know where you are in the song at ALL times. Choosing not to play the melody does not mean we don't need to know the melody. We may be basing our new improvised melody on a counterpoint or a chord progression that was intended to enhance the original melody. I know this sound like a lot of stuff to think about but it all boils down to: Know the song, and play what you hear in your head while using proper technique.

I think you leave out a very key element - imagination. Without that, the direction to "play what you hear in your head" becomes quite limited in its scope. That's about where I am. I had a teacher once who could improvise endlessly on his violin, going seamlessly from one style into another and mesmerize crowds for an hour or more nonstop. He tried to impart that ability to me. The farthest I could ever get with it was to play scales and arpeggios around a melody line. I think it is because I never "hear" anything beyond that in my head, due to lack of imagination. I could never even begin to compose music - that is like magic to me. I also have some decent drawing skills, but they too are pretty much limited to creating "realistic" looking art. I think it is for the same reason. How can one conjure up a vivid artistic or musical imagination from scratch? It is a gift, IMO, just as much as any other possible aspect of playing. Some things just cannot be taught; they are either there or they aren't.

bratsche

[catmandu2]

How can one conjure up a vivid artistic or musical imagination from scratch? It is a gift, IMO, just as much as any other possible aspect of playing. Some things just cannot be taught; they are either there or they aren't.

It has been advocated by many that this imagination resides within us all. The challenge is in learning how to access it. This is often problematic--especially in our hyper-rational "adult" envrionment.

There is an interesting book titled "The Origial Art Of Music" (Ling) in which the author--herself coming from an orthodox "Western" musical education--reports on research she and colleagues conducted involving folk music education. Ling observes that children experience music and other forms of creative expression freely at a young age, and advocates educational curricula which maintain these associations with creativity into adulthood and throughout life (as opposed to modern curricula that serves to neutralize such creativity).

Certainly--as we've been discussing--early exposure and even immersion in an environment of "play" may tend to promote aptitude for creative expression and facility with accessing the imagination. But I believe that old dogs can learn new tricks--as with anything, exercise promotes facility. Have you ever played around with making up simple melodies? It doesn't have to be complex. There is a danger of creating obstacles to overcome--something our society is very good at--by imposing expectations of sophistication. We are surrounded by and innundated with sophisticated music. Sometimes, it is advantageous to liberate ourselves from this and restore ourselves to a condition of playfullness. Indeed, some of us find great respite from the ills of modern society though these means.

I think it's Mark Schatz who demonstrates, on an instructional tape, the concept of simplicity. There is a famous guitar break (Cinnamon Girl) that begins with a one-note motif. Have you ever played around with rhythmic variation? Just for fun? I'm sure you can do it--it's just an attitude that conditions you to think that you can't.

[Don Julin]

I could never even begin to compose music - that is like magic to me.

There are many songwriting workshops and composition courses available. Better yet, transcribe some music that you really enjoy and try to figure out what is going on in this music. Try to learn about keys, intervals, phrasing, tension and release, non key tones, harmony (chords), form, etc. Don't just read the notes. Bratsche, I am sure you have an imagination. I find that people that have a history of playing classical music have the hardest time improvising. Every note they have ever played has been judged by someone to be less than perfect in some way. This is very damaging to your musical imagination. In classical music we (musicians) are merely the worker bees and the compositions come from the GREAT MASTERS. In improvisation WE are creating the music. I remember as a young boy getting in trouble at school because I could not keep quiet. I wasn't talking. I was humming melodies. I could (and still do) hum music most of the day when I am not playing. I just love music. So maybe I was born with it, or maybe I have been practicing improv all of my life. Remember improvisation is live composition, and it may take a few tries to get it. Heck! If it was easy everyone would do it. The most important thing to remember is that You DO have an imagination and whatever you play is OK. Like most things, the more we do it, the better we get at it.

Music = Fun

[GRW3]

My improvisation is based on playing the tune I hear in my head. My virtual mandolin player is much more accomplished than my physical player but some things work pretty well. My personal preference for written music (notation or TAB) is to have the basic melody and nothing more. There is some value in ornamented scores in seeing how a particular player achieves his style but it's no good for me to play from because it just doesn't match what I will imagine.

[catmandu2]

Heck! If it was easy everyone would do it.

The essence of music -- musicality -- is spontaneous, in-the-moment, creative form. In her work, Dorothy Ling (The Original Art of Music, 1989) observed that -- in an environment conducive to creativity and free expression -- all children do indeed do it.

The key is to try to remember how to play.