Bill Monroe's Poor Technique

[M.Marmot]

Thanks for that last post, GrassrootsPhilo,thats some fine thought for considering.

[Dan Johnson]

It may be that, instead of "poor technique," what instructors may be guiding their students away from is "difficult/impossible" technique.

As a guitar teacher (and elementary school teacher), I often have to make decisions about what the students are ready for in terms of their experiences and their growing repertoire of techniques. Many times I encourage students to adopt simpler approaches to a given end because I know that the more difficult techniques exceed their current ability, and would only serve to frustrate them. So, in response to your opening question, if it seems like instructional materials are encouraging beginners to avoid doing things like Monroe did them, it's probably because many advanced players can't hope to emulate the technical mastery that the man achieved. Much less is there hope of a beginner doing so.

If you are curious about the details of Monroe's technique, Lou Martin is a good resource, and he's on the internet. I would also like to thank some of the posts above: Olaf's post is an excellent response.

[Tbone]

Who's Bill Monroe?

[JonZ]

Pickloser--

I stumbled across the following description here:

eBook: The Bickford Mandolin Method

I stumbled across this book while doing research on the right hand picking styles of pre-war guitarists, banjo players, and mandolinists. I had always suspected that the Gypsy Picking technique was employed by most plectrum players before WWII. Bickfords instruction clearly describes the same picking technique that Django and most other Gypsies use on the guitar. The use of predominately down strokes, all played as rest strokes, was the preferred technique of early 20th century mandolin virtuosos. And judging by the incredible playing of Dave Apollon, who I assumed used this same technique, its just as effective on mandolin as it is on guitar.

Although the book covers numerous topics, he consistently returns to the importance of right hand technique. Most of the examples have pick stroke indications included. He also explains numerous special picking techniques.

Bickfords book is also an excellent way to improve all around musicianship. He takes you from the basics of reading music to some very advanced mandolin duets and solo pieces. Youll also learn numerous scales and chords. For those of you without an accompanist, he has some very nice chord-melody solos written out. And finally, he provides information about the history of the instrument and its greatest players.

I think mandolinists of any skill level will find this book beneficial. For mandolinists attempting to play Gypsy jazz, this is the closest thing you'll get to Gypsy Picking for mandolin. Learning the Gypsy picking technique as described by Bickford will help you get the right tone and attack for this music. 89 Pages.

Sounds like what you were describing.

[Salty Dog]

Perhaps the "teacher" aspect is the basis for this discussion. The problem I have had with live teachers is that they seem to insist on teaching you to play stylistically as they do (with the implication that other ways are less desirable). What I really wanted was instruction to help me play the way I wanted to play BETTER! I guess that's why I have only paid for two lessons by different instructors. I feel that part of the problem is the desire to imitate the ("scale notes per nanosecond") style of playing with only one break per key regardless of the melody, as opposed to a more emotional melodic approach with appropriate variations on tempo and force. The latter often requires a lot of work (and individuality) to get the emotion the player feels into the music. I feel WSM also spent more time on the latter and his speed was the result of practice and proficiency, but he did not let speed diminish the emotion of the melody. Listening to the Columbia historical recordings of the classsic band with F&S (1945-1947), you can hear the forceful and aggressive mandolin of WSM develop as Scruggs evolved from the background to the foreground. With Lester singing more and WSM singing less, he began to focus more on the mandolin as an instrumental competitor to the banjo, each trying to outdo the other on successive breaks. This appears to be when the mandolin "chop" started to compete with the banjo "vamp" which probably came first. It is when the "chops and vamps" moved slightly ahead of the beat to create an urgency to the music. Its there for anyone to hear and analyze. I do not believe you can critique the WSM mandolin style from an academic (musical or style of playing) point of view away from an analysis of the development of the "classic" bluegrass sound. I think he, as well as Duffey, did what felt and sounded right to them with the music, without regard to playing style or technique.

[swampstomper]

For those who are interested, the Bickford book is available for free dowload from Archive.org, it was scanned from the NY Public Library. It is not in copyright.

I doubt Bill Monroe used this method! #1 he could not read music #2 his eyesight in his youth was very poor.

Look at page 44 "Fundamental Rules for Picking" for the logic behind using downstrokes. But as Bickford says, all rules have exceptions.

[JonZ]

Oh, and another thing that Bill Monroe did is sling his strap over one shoulder. Apparently to avoid having to remove his hat on stage, if he needed to take his instrument off. Hat hair was not considered good stage presence.

I don't think this is the way that most teachers, or chiropractors, would recommend holding your instrument these days.

[AlanN]

Was surprised to see this added to, then I looked and now I'm not surprised.

This has been talked and talked. Many do it this way, many do it that way. Right? Wrong? Who really cares?

[JonZ]

I added another example to this thread because some people were shocked--SHOCKED I tell you--that I would suggest that current instructional materials would recommend against doing some of the things that Monroe did.

I think there is a continuum of thought on this. Some people gravitate more toward the "Do what feels right to you" camp and others to the "What is the best way?" camp. There is no right or wrong about where an individual exists on this spectrum. If you are going to be judgmental about people who are interested in discussing "correct" technique, you might as well tell all of the pros to stop producing instructional materials, and all of the teachers to get real jobs.

What surprises me is people who add to threads that they say have gone on for too long, and are on topics they claim not to care about.

Is someone forcing you to read this thread?

[JonZ]

This has been talked and talked.

By the way, did you know that you have submitted over 6000 posts? All of them completely necessary and utterly compelling, I suppose.

[Scott Tichenor]

This is a good time to end this compelling discussion. From this point forward use the PM feature to entertain each other.

Here's my rule of thumb: any thread where the common member response is that the OP is trolling reflects a poorly crafted opening post. We're all human though so we'll chalk this up as a lesson learned and will expect to not see that in the future.