Bill Monroe's Poor Technique

[Roger Kunkel]

The best technique would be to profoundly impact the history of American music and spawn thousands (millions?) of mandolin imitators.

Sorry, got on my high horse there. It's a perfectly valid question. I think Bill's early technique is especially astounding. I don't think that playing smoothly and cleanly was his goal. It was all about intensity and he had that in spades.

[Mandolin Mick]

Monroe & technique? The 2 were exclusive! What a hack!

[mandocrucian]

The OP, imo, was just a pure "troll". I've acquired loads of instructional book over the past 30 years, and I'm curious as to which of these materials (yes name specific titles) that fit your scenario of

It seems like the authors make a particular point of telling us not to do certain things, because they know that so many people want to emulate BM, even though those author's don't come right out and say, "Don't do what Bill Monroe did."

But, consult the "almighty oracle at the temple of ANKI" and please provide some of these "suspect" examples.

In a graded technique "method" (becoming more complex and difficult as the method progresses) there may well be validity in telling a student to (first) "develop this technique" before confusing the issue with alternative RH articulations, that the student is mechanically may not be ready for.

Now, I've posted enough on the Cafe over the last ten years concerning "default" techniques (i.e. basic foundational technique) as well as advocating all sorts of numerous alternate (RH) articulations, fingerings, position shifting etc. for the advancing players so that pick direction, position, fingering won't eventually matter anymore.......anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger, whatever pick directional (and slurring) articulations produce the sounds in your mental "ear".

The whole purpose of developing "technique" is so that the individual can get (or get closer to) the "sound that turns them on". I have my own personal preferences which have evolved over the decades - but they are what I like and what I don't like. There's some Monroe stuff which, to me, sounds just awful; there's also virtuosic "new acoustic" of BG playing which comes across, to me, as sterile, souless and robotic. And stuff that, to me, is over-the-top schmaltzy and cloying.

It's all personal preference in the end...one man's schmaltz is another man's soulfulness. I listen to what I like, which is all the justification it needs. I won't apologize for my tastes, and nobody should for theirs either. ("You go to your church and I'll go to mine")

On the other hand, there's playing which is very ragged technically, but I love the sound. Yank Rachell. (Or how 'bout Johnny Winter playing mando on "Too Much Seconal" with Jeremy Steig on blues flute?) The sound might be a result as big, heavily calloused laborer's hands. But if a player wants that sound , it may well entail controllably developing "bad" technique - for example, being able to play runs in which one string of the pair is intentionally and consistantly pushed sharp for that gutbucket, down in the swamp, raw sound that's on those old recordings.

Can you control, at will, "bad technique", turning it on and off, as the sonic situation demands? It's the difference between "a drunk man fighting" and "Drunken-Man style Kung Fu". It's the difference between being the "stompee" and the "stomper".

As I've said on numerous occasions...... there is no inherentally "bad tone" (i.e. it is always "bad tone" ), just whether it is "appropriate tone" for the situation. DUDU DUDU is a different sound than DDDD DDDD even if the left-hand pitches are the same - And, playing it with UUUU and UDUD are also different. Playing close to the bridge may be too bright and abrasive as opposed to playing over the neck istself for that "hollow" tone.......but what does the musical situation call for? Is it a Little Richard moment or a Pat Boone moment? Johnny Mathis or Tom Waits?

Most of the orchestral/classical flute players tend to sneer at the "untrained" (in their opinions) jazz and rock flutists (usually sax players who double); think that their tone and technique is crude. Perhaps in comparison to what would be required for a orchestral job position, it is, but personally, I far prefer the jazz/rock (and ethnic) players sound-wise in comparison to that "golden classical tone" which (to my ears) is so "ultra-prissy" and gutless. It's like classical violinists sounding ridiculous when they (try to) play "old-time fiddle".

NH

[mikeyes]

No less an authority than Roland White once said in a class he gave that he didn't know technique until WSM taught it it him. Roland told our class that he won't listen to the early Colonels albums because of his poor technique on them.

I think that some critics listen to Bill Monroe's versions of fiddle tunes and remark that he doesn't play the entire tune note for note, which is true. But what WSM is doing is playing in a more impressionistic radical style that he developed on his own and is now a standard. He introduced so many variations and additions to the music that a lot of players these days don't even understand much less be able to name. He was a genius who also had impeccable technique. When you are like that, you can accomplish a lot and he did.

Mike Keyes

[swampy]

Blasphemy!

Perhaps what such an author meant was "Don't do this, even though Bill Monroe did it, because he was so amazingly talented that he was able to flout conventional practices and succeed where you, puny human, are doomed to fail." Or something like that.

That's pretty much how I interpreted it.

[JonZ]

The OP, imo, was just a pure "troll".

Man, looks like you took the bait, big time.

I don't have a lot of examples to site. Like I said, it was more of a suspicion. I am asking to find out.

(Sometimes I ask when I already know the answer, to show how smart I am.)

The only thing that stuck out was the use of down strokes, but just looking at where his pick was hitting on the face of his instrument suggests that there may have been some other idiosyncrasies at play.

Funny you bring up Anki. Can you believe it has been a full year since Adventures in Super Efficient Mandolin Practice took the Café by storm? I have been preparing the annual State of the Super Efficient Mandolin Practice Address, to bring you all up to date.

Stay tuned!

[Steve Cantrell]

Bill Monroe, poor technique? Lol.

[foldedpath]

The only thing that stuck out was the use of down strokes, but just looking at where his pick was hitting on the face of his instrument suggests that there may have been some other idiosyncrasies at play.

Well, you're posting this in the Theory and Technique section, not the Bluegrass section of the forum, where the question might be more relevant (IMO). Personally, I think if one's primary interest is Bluegrass, then it would be crazy not to study everything Monroe did, even if you want to end up more in the Thile/Marshall zone. It would be like trying to learn about jazz while ignoring Louis Armstrong.

In the context of general mandolin technique however, then sure... there are aspects of his playing that don't work well outside the native soil of Bluegrass music. You're going to get the hairy eyeball from the other musicians, if you try playing chop chords and all downstrokes on melody lines in an Irish trad session. I take what I can use from Monroe's technique -- mostly some of the double stop and tremolo stuff, and leave what I don't need, since my primary music isn't Bluegrass. Some of the things I do (or try to) in Irish trad wouldn't move in the other direction either, like treble ornaments and rolls. That ain't no part of... well, you know what Bill would say about it!

[Brian Ray]

Anyone who says Monroe has poor technique is just ignorant on the subject.

[Jim Broyles]

I have slowed many Bill Monroe pieces down to 20% and I am dead certain that I know for sure what notes are being played and I cannot adequately copy his technique. He did say that he didn't play all the notes people say they heard, but even with missing notes and so-called sloppy style, very few can replicate Monroe's playing exactly.

[barney 59]

Isn't the difference between a highly skilled player and a cultural icon just that ---That they play like nobody else? So called "proper" technique works for most of us --the correct grip, good posture and balance,how to hold the pick etc. and people who teach will direct students to adopt what they perceive to be good technique. These are all good things to know and for most of us it can help us become better players by adopting skills that others have developed ahead of us. Bill Monroe didn't have much of a chance at taking advantage of preexisting models, he had to make it up from scratch. More than anything I think that Bill Monroe really has a leg up on any other bluegrass mandolin player in that he is responsible for inventing an entire and enduring form of music AND he happened to play the mandolin.

[JonZ]

Anyone who says Monroe has poor technique is just ignorant on the subject.

I admit my ignorance; it was the reason for posting the question. The ironic title was to get the most answers.

Do you mean he had a technique that bluegrass players should try to emulate, or one that worked well for him? Because that is what I want to discern. For example, are you wearing down the face of your mandolin from hitting it with your pick? Or do you try to avoid hitting the face of your mandolin? Should all bluegrass players be trying to wear down the face of their instruments?

Perhaps that is a technique that is no longer necessary in the age of modern amplification???

(Yes, I know he gouged off a lot of the finish on purpose, but there is that one spot, right where he picked.)

[swampstomper]

OK, let's listen to that poor technique. Get out your Bear Family box sets (you *do* have *all* of them, don't you??). Let's start with the re-make of Pike County Breakdown with Bill Keith (unreleased at the time). Now, set your metronome to the same beats. Now try to make that run from the low A all the way up as clean as Mon. Left-hand economy? Coordination? Hmm...

Maybe go back a few years to Monroe Brothers. Try those runs on New River Train or Rabbit in the Log. How's your left-right hand coordination? Of course it helps if you have a powerful rhythm man backing you up... or from a few years later, the same kind of two-octave run on Back Up and Push.

Now let's move to Blue Grass Ramble, the first cut for Decca from 1950 with Rudy Lyle, Vassar Clements, Joel Price and Jimmy Martin. Cross-tune as required (just lower one E string to C#). Again, get your metronome going. And then try to duplicate the double-shuffle rhythm on the last break. Lose right hand? Hmm..

Time to get funky. You know where I'm going with this one... it has to be Blue Grass Part I (aka Blue Grass Twist). Not too fast so you can *try* to get those downstrokes going. Make sure to let the notes ring. Can you pull that tone out of your mando? Don't forget the grace notes and slides. If your right hand can still take it, get out the Knee Deep in Blue Grass LP and play along with other funky breaks like Goodbye Old Pal.

You say the man got old?? Alright, 1983 and Master of Bluegrass. Where to start? (I know the mixing job was terrible but we're talking about the mandolin technique here). Maybe we can try Old Dangerfield. Not so many notes... can you get the dynamics of the B part down? Maybe that takes some technique with the plectrum?

OK, OK, I'm ranting. But as Sam Bush says on the 2nd Homespun Bill Monroe DVD (where he breaks down Mon's style) "I can't play it exactly like Bill... no one can... if I could I would" or something like that. There's a reason they wrote "'Cept Old Bill".

[Mike Bunting]

I have begun to suspect that implicit in some current learning materials is "Don't do this, even though Bill Monroe did it." For example: don't use down picking on eighth notes, even though Bill Monroe did it.

I have never heard or read of anyone saying this, where did you hear it?

[JonZ]

"Implicit" means they don't come right out and say it. But plenty of books stress the importance of strict down-up picking on eigth notes. Maybe not so much in bluegrass books. The answer to this question will either be "No, Bill's tecnique is pretty much what is taught in most Bluegrass books" or "Yes, there are some things that Bill did that are generally discouraged these days."

I think a lot of people want to argue against points that I am not trying to make--probably because of the thread title, and perhaps some people are a little over-sensitive about their heros. I know the Mr. Monroe was a great man--carrying his entire band around on his back and all. I am sure in the afterlife, I will see Bill Monroe and Chuck Norris sitting to the either side of Jesus--but that doesn't mean everything about them is beyond question.

Depending, of course, on whether I make it to the same place as Bill and Chuck.

[Jim Broyles]

Dude, you are trolling and you know it. Bill Monroe did NOT play all down strokes all the time and in fact my favorite Monroe stuff is 16th note DUDU. If I were to teach proper mandolin picking technique I would teach strict DUDU and encourage variation for creativity.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

Dude, you are trolling and you know it. Bill Monroe did NOT play all down strokes all the time and in fact my favorite Monroe stuff is 16th note DUDU. If I were to teach proper mandolin picking technique I would teach strict DUDU and encourage variation for creativity.

What a load of DUDU!

[hank]

Jon Z I think what most of us are trying to say gently to you is this thread is ridiculous. There are better ways to learn about Bill Monroe's technique than this.

[GVD]

...has the tact of being a guest at a wedding and yelling at the top of your lungs, "boy, this punch tastes like ####!"...

OK I admit it was a poor choice of words but it really was bad punch

[Chris Biorkman]

Lol

[mikeyes]

In the context of general mandolin technique however, then sure... there are aspects of his playing that don't work well outside the native soil of Bluegrass music. You're going to get the hairy eyeball from the other musicians, if you try playing chop chords and all downstrokes on melody lines in an Irish trad session. I take what I can use from Monroe's technique -- mostly some of the double stop and tremolo stuff, and leave what I don't need, since my primary music isn't Bluegrass. Some of the things I do (or try to) in Irish trad wouldn't move in the other direction either, like treble ornaments and rolls. That ain't no part of... well, you know what Bill would say about it!

There are times in ITM in which the down strokes work very well, polkas for instance. And WSM did not use the chop all that much even though it was an iconic move for him. Rumor has it that he had to use it to keep his young musicians in time and that it was so effective that others used it just to sound like Bill.

But I know what you mean

[M.Marmot]

What are all of the things that BM did that are generally considered "poor technique" for the modern mandolinist?

Just how do you personally define the modern mandolinist?

Is it simply a contemporary mandolin player or does the 'modern mandolinist' boast a more certain set of characteristics, values, and goals than that?

[JonZ]

Listen, I posted the title the way I did to get people to read the question. The title was meant to be ironic, but the question itself is a reasonable one. If you think questioning any aspect of BM's playing is "ignorant", "ridiculous", "trolling", or otherwise reprehensible, I direct you to the Bill Monroe Appreciation social group.

Thoughtful responses are welcome.

I did not say Bill Monroe played all down strokes on 8th notes. I said that some books say to always use down-up on 8th notes, which BM did not always do. I would add to the list the angle of attack. I think most books these days would not recommend picking in a manner that carves a hole in your mandolin. The condition of his mandolin would also bring into question whether he had the loose grip that is now commonly encouraged.

I am not saying that these practices (if my assumptions are correct) made him any less of an artist. It is a purely technical question about how technique has evolved since the man invented it.

When I refer to the "modern mandolinist", I am referring to the various professionals currently teaching and performing.

[Mike Bunting]

I have begun to suspect that implicit in some current learning materials is "Don't do this, even though Bill Monroe did it." For example: don't use down picking on eighth notes,[I] even though Bill Monroe did it[/I
Is my suspicion correct?

What are all of the things that BM did that are generally considered "poor technique" for the modern mandolinist?

I'd still like to know which materials implied this notion.

[Cullowheekid]

Seems like I remember a quote from Ol' Bill where he said something like "It's not the left hand or the right hand, it's in between." He had it going on, in between. Eric