Lombardy tuning problem....

[dave17120]

I have been restoring an old lombardy mandolin for a client... nice instrument... I'll post some photos later.... but having problems with the strings. Its a 6 string and wants to be tuned g b e a d g from the bottom up with nylon strings. (I'm not entertaining gut or nylgut...)
Now, my problem is, which octave are we in? Where is middle C (as on the piano) or 440 A??
Any thoughts welcome..... cheers, Dave

[Margriet]

Dave,
I tried to explain earlier, maybe I was not clear enough, sorry. Middle c is the first fret at the b - string. The a string is the same as the a on the 4-course mandolin, you can use this as well as an anchor. Succes,
Margriet

[dave17120]

Hello Margriet........ its probably me.... or perhaps the information I got from the Japanese site about possible string gauges in nylon..... when I started breaking strings, I thought maybe there was an error somewhere. Probably the choice of string gauge.... if at first you don't succeed....!?!
Many thanks, again, Dave

[Margriet]

Hi Dave,
which strings you are breaking ? Are you aware of the fact that the outer strings need to be strung besides the head ? Are the openings in the nut smooth and clear ? Where did they break ( down under or up), how did you attach them on the "bridge" ? Maybe these things make difference.
I have no experience yet with nylon. I have gut strings.The highest one broke after a while and now I use the other half. I want to try the gut-colored nylgut, as the real gut strings are expensive.
Maybe some other people here have experience with stringing Lombardian ? Go ahead! Like to hear and share experiences !

[K. WONG]

I use Nylgut on my lombardy mandolin, I put on from the 1st to the 6th:
40NG, 48NG, 64NG, 82NG, 108D and 136D
Still, the 1st string is rather easy to break
AquilaUSA suggested to use two gauges bigger in nylon.
I tune my mandoino to 415 A
I hope that the information may of some help.

[dave17120]

Ok, I think the problem was I was inadvertently in the wrong octave which is why the string broke.... in fact at the bridge?!?

It is now roughly tuned up.... I think. I'm waiting for the strings to settle down. They seem incredibly stretchy!!!

I ordered the nylon strings from a supplier in Germany, following suggestions for gauges on the Crane webpage on lombardys. So I have the following string gauges on it at the moment 38, 40, 50, 70, 88w and 108w. Perhaps judging by K Wongs gauges (I know nylgut is a bit different...) I may need to go quite a bit heavier.
They seem strange measurements to me.... not sure what measuring scale that is, but in traditional sizes (measured with a digital caliper) they come out as .014 .015 .020 .028 .022w and .026w......... both top to bottom.

I have to say they do seem rather slack to me, but I have no way to judge if this is normal or not.
For reference, the scale length is about 305mm.
How much sideways give should there be? I can, at the moment, easily move each string sideways to touch the next.

Also, what would it have been played with?? Fingers or picks, and if the latter, what type/style/shape etc.????

That's what I like about this job..... no matter how much you learn, there is always more!! Thanks in anticipation...... Dave

[dave17120]

As promised..... here are the photos.....

[K. WONG]

A beautiful instrument. Mine is a 6 courses mandolino, so the gauges of the strings may not be the same.
I saw Zigiotti played one in youtube:

[K. WONG]

A beautiful instrument. Mine is a 6 courses mandolino, so the gauges of the strings may not be the same.
I saw Zigiotti played one in youtube:

[dave17120]

Hi I'm not sure if I should call you K or Wong....... but what sort of scale length is your instrument.... by way of comparison? Thanks, Dave

[K. WONG]

Dave, you can call me K or Wong, as long as I kown that you are talking to me, its OK
My mandolino was built by Daniel Larson, in his site, he mentioned the string length as 34 cm, but my measurement is 336 mm, the distance between the strings at the nut is 6.5 mm, at the bridge 7.5 mm.
I have a friend who has a mandolino built by Gabrielli, the string length is 318 mm
the mandolino has Nylgut, from the first to the sixth are 40NG, 52NG, 62NG, 82NG,108D and 132D. The tensions are, in the same order, 3.7kg, 3.5kg, 2.9kg, 2.9kg, 2.6kg and 2.6kg.
I cannot upload the video that I mentioned, here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-JD5mfMMdg

[Jim Garber]

For your convenience... thanks for posting that, K. Wong.

[Jim Garber]

I strung mine with gut from Daniel Larson. I think i just emailed him with the scale length and what tuning I would use and he made up a set. I broke the high string almost immediately and would probably opt for Nylgut in the future. BTW Dave, was yours made by Carlo Albertini of Milan?

[K. WONG]

Even with Nylgut the first string is rather easy to break. If my memory serves me well, it is Richard Walz who taught me to use 0.41mm fishline for the first string. It is very cheap, last long and the difference is not that great.
The gut strings that comes with my mandolino is from Daniel Larson, the gauges are as follows:
0.40mm gut, 0.48mm gut, 0.64mm gut, 0.78mm gut, 1.05mm Gimp, 58/11 Wound

[Margriet]

K.Wong: thank you for sharing, both experience and video.

Jim: can you give the gauges of the set that Daniel Larson made for you, together with scale length and tuning ? Were you satisfied ? The first one broke, but that is a cheap string and with gut you can have two out of one.

Dave: nice instrument! What was your work on it ? I see, that you strung your outer strings inside the head, where I attached them outside, as you can see on the photo. I learned it should be that way and I saw it on more old photos. When I bought the instrument, the strings were also attached like that.

My Manfredi mandolin has - like Dave's - 305 mm scale length. I tuned it 415Hz. I am still experimenting with the gauges and to get a good sound and right tuning. The gut set I use was made by a violin maker for me. As it is not completely in balance, I am most interested in your experiences and advices, especially on the lowest, the wounded strings. My set has higher gauges than yours and I do not know it from the wounded ones. I am trying to find out what my instrument CAN have like sound and to string it that way, that I can have a full sound that also is stable, that stays in tune. I have a set Nylgut coming, but not yet received. Hope this will bring me more information.

[dave17120]

Margriet, thanks for the photo of a lombardy strung outside the head...... I did think the 'fit' with all the strings inside was badly arranged, but thought it was just something unavoidable. Stringing outside could be a good alternative.... I'll try it.

Jim, the is no label of any sort in the one I'm restoring..... I think its either an Albertini or a VERY close copy. It had a partial set of mis-matched pages, a split down a back seam, and several shrinkage cracks in the top, including a long one running right under the left arm of the bridge. Also, because it has a shallow bowl... very difficult to work inside!! All in one piece now though.... it just remains to figure out the best string combinations...... there is almost nothing on the net that helps. Almost all the experts are keeping their knowledge close to their chests I expect!!

More work on string gauges next week I think..... my first choice just feels too slack.

[billkilpatrick]

dave - don't know if this will be useful but stringing an oud is a nightmare - they look all jumbled up, no matter what - but here's the proper sequence:

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/stringing.html

[dave17120]

Thanks Bill, useful page for an Oud........ I have one of them to restore once I get the time.....??!!

[Eugene]

Dave,
I tried to explain earlier, maybe I was not clear enough, sorry. Middle c is the first fret at the b - string. The a string is the same as the a on the 4-course mandolin, you can use this as well as an anchor. Succes,
Margriet

Super late to this game, but the low g is also the same as on a Neapolitan instrument. To be exact, using Helmholtz conventions (because they are useful) g, b, e', a', d'', g''.

[Eugene]

...And it is a lovely instrument, Dave.

[Margriet]

Here is another photo where you can see the outer strings attached to the pegs outside the head. It is the head of a Rossi Lombardy mandolin

[Margriet]

I use Nylgut on my lombardy mandolin, I put on from the 1st to the 6th:
40NG, 48NG, 64NG, 82NG, 108D and 136D
Still, the 1st string is rather easy to break
AquilaUSA suggested to use two gauges bigger in nylon.
I tune my mandoino to 415 A
I hope that the information may of some help.

I think it can help, K.Wong, as you have already experience with nylgut and know which gauges are needed. I am a bit confused by more information in later posts. I need a bit of resume. Is there difference, because the mandolino has double strings and the Lombardy single?
on your Lombardy you use 40NG, 48NG, 64NG, 82NG, 108D and 136D
your friend (mr. Zigiotti?) on Lombardy or on mandolino ? 40NG, 52NG, 62NG, 82NG,108D and 132D you talk about mandolino, on video he plays Lombardy, but maybe there is no difference...
on your mandolino, built by Daniel Larson, you use gut strings, right? Jim as well.
Are the two lowest strings wounded strings, also in the nylgut set? They do not have the NG at their numbers.

There is a slightly difference between your nylgut strings and the strings of your friend. What should be the best for me? ( scale length 305mm, tuned in 415.)
You recommend fish line for the first. i will have a try as well, thanks for the suggestion.
I am about to order; as there is a minimum amount for an order, I would be glad to be a bit more sure to order the right ones.
Thanks for helping,
Margriet

[K. WONG]

I do not know Zigiotti personally, but I like his performance in youtube, and I suppose that others will like it as I do. Besides, lombardy mandolin is not so easy to come by, so I think that others will be interested.
NG is for the nylgut, and D is nylgut wound with copper wire, so look for D in the catalogue.
I bought nylgut from AquilaUSA from the State, Curtis Daily is a working musician and he is very helpful in helping me to calculate the gauges. But it seems that he recently has many requests for calculation that end up without any purchase that he now charges $20 for calcutation if it does not lead to purchase over $20. Here is his site: http://www.aquilausa.com/Default.html
Since you live in Netherland, I suppose that it is easier for you to buy nylgut directly from Aquila Corde Armoniche, maybe you can contact them to see if they could give you some suggestion.
I used the online string calculators in Daniel Larson to calculate the gauges, here is the link: http://www.gamutstrings.com/calculators/calculator.htm
I hope that what I have said can be of some help.
Kasper

[Margriet]

I do not know Zigiotti personally, but I like his performance in youtube, and I suppose that others will like it as I do. Besides, lombardy mandolin is not so easy to come by, so I think that others will be interested.

Since you live in Netherland, I suppose that it is easier for you to buy nylgut directly from Aquila Corde Armoniche, maybe you can contact them to see if they could give you some suggestion.

I hope that what I have said can be of some help.
Kasper

Thanks, Kasper, you are helping. You are right: the people who care about Lombardy are a few and I am happy that I get respons and contact with other "Lombardians". I was surprised and happy to see and hear the video of mr. Zigiotti, playing a Lombardy mandolin.

I made the contact with mr. Mimmo Peruffo of Aquila by e-mail and he asked me to do (for me ) complicated things to know the gauges. I delayed and delayed and until now I still not have the right strings. So I chose to pick up this thread again. Tonight I wrote an e-mail to mr. Zigiotti as well, to ask him. And on facebook I put a question at the group "the instruments of the European mandolin family through the ages". I will go on with your information and keep in touch to share experience.

I hope there are more Lombardy-loving people to meet and share information !

Margriet

[Margriet]

[QUOTE=K. WONG;881687]I do not know Zigiotti personally, but I like his performance in youtube, and I suppose that others will like it as I do.

Here are another two videos of mr. Zigiotti playing the Lombardy mandolin. Added information says he playes a Pandini.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaS9OVAtaJw