Singing and playing.

[Jimmijames]

Hello All,

I have a hard time talking and playing at the same time. I can't even think about singing and playing.

What's the trick?

Cheers,
Jim

[Mandolin Mick]

It depends what you're doing on the mandolin. If you're playing rhythm or chop chords, it's just a matter of getting used to it through practice. No different from guitar and relatively easy.

If you mean playing licks or fills that's another story. A lot of guys have trouble playing bass & singing at the same time. This usually means learning licks by rote and then practicing singing with the licks over and over. It's hard ... different areas of the brain at work ... some can do it and some can't ...

[Markus]

Non musicians see picking and fretting as mutually exclusive, just to remind you that you already do something many find impossible.

I've been doing it so long that it's become second nature, though I've been struggling a lot singing with mandolin, as I'd grown used to pitch-matching off the low guitar strings and now lack those frequencies with my mandolin.

It's a great question, but the longer I think of it the less I feel I have to say that's not fairly obvious [start with a song with few easy chord changes you can do without looking, and that you can play `on automatic' without much thought].

Perhaps recording yourself playing mandolin and just singing over it would be a good first step - then sing along while strumming just when the chords change. Then work on adding the rhythm in places, perhaps simplifying it a lot during when you have to sing.

IMO, I would consider that if you're planning to do this in a group, as long as it doesn't seem like you're doing a lot less playing - you can play a lot less. There's all the other instruments to lean on ... this isn't ideal, but in my opinion if a singer does a great job at singing I'm not so concerned about what his fingers are doing at the same time.

[Gelsenbury]

I'm glad you asked this question because I'm struggling with the same thing! My singing and strumming turn to rubbish the moment I try to do both together. Forget about picking a melody. Even with very simple chord changes (say from an open G to an open C) I can get the fretting right but the pattern goes all over the place.

The answer is obviously that it's a matter of coordination and needs to be practised. But can anyone share some tips on how to practise this effectively? Markus's post is a good start, but I'm sure there's more good advice out there.

[roscoestring]

With me its pracitce, practice, practice. I force myself and I have to really concentrate on certain songs. I had a hard time learning to sing while playing bass. Not so much with guitar. Mandolin not so hard as long as I'm just choppin'. Then I tried to play harmonica at the same time I play guitar. I got the hang of that so I decided to try it with the banjo. A lot harder. Here's a video I did one day when I was bored. Not very good but you get the idea of the types of things I practice. This was super hard to concentrate on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHz8lQXhdqw

[farmerjones]

it really helps if the song has the changes in between the phrases.
(like Wabash Cannonball)
Something that has a walking progression
(like Gentle on My Mind)
is much tougher for me.
If the change is in between phrases, i can even add a run.

i've said, something has to go on auto-pilot while y' sing and play at once. But
i think just good old practice helps most. I sit and sing & play songs all by myself. I think it's good therapy. The last thing you need is stress or pressure. Then when you have to do a song on stage, all you have to do is pretend your home practicing.

[Tom Wright]

Back in my rock days, I couldn't imagine pulling it off but after many hours of rehearsal and practice it became much easier. What happens is one of the two becomes almost completely unconscious. Eventually you dance between the two, sending some attention to the one that needs it for that instant, going on autopilot after.

The reason you can't easily talk and play is that your playing is highly conscious, and then you try to split your attention to another full-awareness action. Easy to converse if you're just vamping on a chord.

[mandocrucian]

If you have to split the brain, the sum of the attention given to the different tasks needs to equal 100% (or less). Which means, you need to have some confort level, individually, with each of the components. Perhaps the vocals are fairly ingrained, so you only need to devote 25% attention to it; that means the remainder can be devoted to the mando rhythm part. If you have to demand 115% total attention, then it's not going to be cohesive. (In The words of Chuck Berry....Too much monkey business......)

Also, keep in mind, that your attention quota, is related to your tempo. If you slow everything down to half speed, you have doubled the amount of attention you can devote to either or both parts. If the house of cards keeps falling apart, slow the tempo until it hangs together. You can also simplify (dumb down) the troublesome task(s).

1) Practice the mando accompaniment part separately.
2) Practice the vocals separately.
This prepares you (hopefully) to begin putting the two together.
3) Practice the two together, training your brain in general for doing two things at once.

The more your brain works at doing 2 or more things at once, the better it gets at handling split-attention. This is NOT task specific. Practicing foot percussion while playing can make it easier to sing with the instrument.

I can probably speak with a lot more personal experience about this than most of the folks on this forum. If you are sceptical, you can take a look at the old video of solo mandolin + vocal on the signature link below. (I got to the point of being able to improvise my instrumental accompaniments on the spot beneath the vocals.) But it went much further than that, since I also worked on kicking bass lines on organ style bass pedals, and then adding drum-kit rhythms on a specially devised kit controlled with the other foot.

Again, it all depends how complicated, or independent the various parts are, as to how much the brain can handle. A fiddle tune with straightforward R-5 bass lines (and an occasional connecting walk) and basic kick/snare groove is much much simpler than doing some syncopated bass line and dovetailling drum pattern under the same tune. If the vocal part (or mando accompaniment) are syncopated against each other, things get more difficult than if it was a straight country boom-chuck rhythm with a straight vocal delivery. (As opposed to dovetailing vocal/accompaniment parts..."Rock & Roll Hoochie Koo", "Up On Cripple Creek", "Hells Bells", "Back In Black"...etc.

On complex (3 parts or more) stuff...I would practice the components in pairs
Vocal & mandolin,
Bass pedals & drums
Mandolin & drums
Vocal & basspedals
Mandolin & Basspedals
Vocals & drums

and then on to combination of threes:
Mando/basspedals/drums
Vocal/basspedals/drums
Vocal/Mando/basspedals
Vocal/Mando/drums

Again, to do more things at once, you must have practiced the various components so that they all need less conscious RAM attention. (However, the more you split your brain, the more at ease it becomes with the process, so your ability to run more simultaneous programs increases).

I would sit around and mess with James Brown funk grooves on the basspedals and drums. Each part would be syncopated and the other would be sycopated in a different way - fitting in the holes the other left. Doing one of those basslines on pedals with one foot is a lot more physically demanding and harder (the foot has to move much much greater distances between pedals than the fingers on a neck) than playing it on a bass guitar with two hands. Same thing for controlling a 6-piece kit with one foot vs. two arms and two feet. It could take weeks and weeks just putting a 4-bar funk groove together, and still not have it up to real tempo. I could actually feel my brain getting rewired - it would feel like it had gone through a taffy puller; it might temporarily mess with the speech center making conversation more difficult. The peripheral vision (or your perception of it) would expand/widen out, and visually things would take on an enhanced 3D effect ("viewmaster vision" if you remember those old 3D slide viewers).

As I mentioned, as the brain learns to juggle two+ tasks, which two doesn't matter as much. After stretching my brain on funk grooves (basspedals & drums), I would find that it suddenly became a lot easier to sing "RocK & Roll Hoochie Koo" while playing the accompaniment (a combination of both Johnny Winter's and Rich Derringer's guitar parts) on the mando. The "computer" had increased, through exercises, its RAM capabilities.

Something like "Over The Waterfall" is an easy no-brainer to do (for me) on mando/pedals/drums. But if I try it using the LHed mando, it gets a lot harder. And the last time I sat down with the pedals & drums with flute in hand; the tune was beyond me...just to much conscious attention demanded by my mental flute "program" to keep the other "balls in the air". (However, I should say, that keeping the lip placement steady on the instrument does become a issue when the two legs are rocking the body more than normal.) But if you must consciously think too much about what you are physically doing on the instrument, it may be asking too much of your brain to do simultaneous additional tasks.

There have been some brain studies of musicians, quoted, lined or excerpted in occasional threads on the Cafe (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...n-Playing-Fast) and it's the pianists that come out on top in brainscan studies, followed by the violinists. However, I think those are deficient because "Where are the jazz/blues/gospel Hammond B3 organists, who play with both hands and kick bass pedals and sing up a storm?" IMO, those players would surpass the mere two-handed pianists! Or, how about putting a stepdancing fiddler like Natalie MacMaster under the MRI? or how about a drummer like Jack DeJohnnette who also is a capable piano player?

Niles Hokkanen

[MCFlyboy]

Actually, talking and playing I find MUCH harder to do than singing and playing. . .but whatever number of things you're trying to do at once, practice, practice, practice. My method for singing and playing a particular tune has usually been to find a recording of the song that I like, strap on the instrument and play along as best I can, singing the lead or harmony vocal depending on what I want to get from it. It certainly helps to be alone doing these times (fortunately my wife works and is gone at least some of the time I'm at home). For some reason or other, a mirror seems also to help, maybe because I'm not trying sing and play, but look cool doing it as well. I've done it this way all my performing life, and one of these days I may get good at it.

[Steve Ostrander]

Mick, you mentioned bass players. I started out years ago playing guitar, rhythm mostly, and then switched to bass because our band neede a bass player. It was much more difficult to sing and play bass, especially in a blues band, because the walking bass lines were completely different from the vocal melody. I got to where I could do it OK, but it was very different from playing rhythm guitar and singing.

I could, however, talk and play at the same time, and I often would walk up to a table in a club and converse with a friend while playing the bass during a lead break. Don't know why, but it never was an issue with me. I think it's because blues bass lines are very repetitive patterns and I could just operate on autopilot.

[Markus]

Actually, talking and playing I find MUCH harder to do than singing and playing.

Near impossible, personally ... though after 20 years of playing guitar [now 4 on mando] I'm starting to be able to, if it's very simple [yes/no, basic statements to my toddler daughter]

I have to think too much when speaking - singing lyrics requires performing motor acts but doesn't require me to formulate anything at all - just regurgitate it.

I would also note that for most of us, talking also involves facial expressions if not body language, also use of pitch to denote sentences/questions/etc. Then it's stringing words together grammatically to coherently express complex thought. [just try playing and formulating that sentence!]

Honestly, there's a LOT more to talking that you'd think, and while singing is no joke the fact that it's something you can practice a thousand times prior should help make it more of a `motor function' than something directly thought about intensely. It seems strange [at first] to consider singing to be a `muscle memory' type task - but surprisingly it becomes like that after a bit. You're still paying close attention, but things are at least partially on `auto-pilot'.

Niles' advice is great, I can sing and play and found a lot of truth there - as well as some ideas I'm eager to try myself.

Personally, I find singing and playing difficult but possible - the problem I have is getting the stupid looks off my face when playing. To me, that seems to be harder than that amazingly complex stuff Niles does. If only someone could could teach me how to look normal while playing ...

[Coffeecup]

Just one other suggestion - make sure that you're picking a key that suits your voice then play the instrument to suit that. If you try to stretch your voice to match "easy" chords you will not be comfortable.

[Denny Gies]

Just like getting to Carnegie Hall....practice, practice, practice. It will become natural to chop or strum while singing. For my money I'd forget about trying to pick a melody or fill notes while singing for the immediate future. In all honesty, it will come.

[Mandolin Mick]

Steve-

Well, I played in bass in a Beatles tribute band; the recorded Beatles. Singing and playing that was nearly impossible. Try Happiness is a Warm Gun, Rain, Dear Prudence, etc. McCartney is a musical genius, that's all there is to it.

On O Darling McCartney played piano on the basic track and it is said that he did the final vocal while playing that bass run. Nothing less than unworldly!!! Here's a picture of me doing my best ...

[Earl Gamage]

Yes, sing your scales as you play them. Then after a few weeks try singing a song you know very well while you pick it.

It really does not make for great music in my opinion but it's great ear training.

I'm glad you asked this question because I'm struggling with the same thing! My singing and strumming turn to rubbish the moment I try to do both together. Forget about picking a melody. Even with very simple chord changes (say from an open G to an open C) I can get the fretting right but the pattern goes all over the place.

The answer is obviously that it's a matter of coordination and needs to be practised. But can anyone share some tips on how to practise this effectively? Markus's post is a good start, but I'm sure there's more good advice out there.

[John Gardinsky]

A few suggestions that may help. Pick an easy song, with two or three chords max that don't change a lot( Handsome Molly). Know the melody well vocally. Know the chord progression well on the instrument. Practice singing and tapping a foot. Then practice singing the song and "strumming" a quarter note rhythm (downbeats 1,2,3,4...)on muted strings with out changing chords. The only thing at this point left to add is the chord changes. This is a big hurdle so don't be discouraged, it takes many attempts. After 15 years I still have to learn some songs with open chords so I can strum on all the down beats before I try to sing and chop it out on the 2 and 4 beats. One or two songs under your belt and it gets easier. John

[Markus]

One or two songs under your belt and it gets easier.

Very worth repeating.

Lots of good advice here. Singing the scales is a great idea, as it's a way to get the ball rolling.

Finding songs that fit your vocal range well is important as a starter, as does finding a simple song and especially one where the chord changes synchronize with the vocals.

Personally, I'd aim at songs where the chord changes are simple don't have a lot of rapid changes or mid-lyric/line changes.

`Way Downtown' by Doc Watson or `On and On' by Monroe come to mind, where the chords change in what seems [to me] obvious places in the lyrics. These might not for you, but both illustrate simple 3 chord songs that repeat the same progression ad infinitum and whose chord changes follow a predictable and fairly easy pattern.

As John well stated, these aren't your `forever' songs ... like with playing, it may take some work and time to graduate to those tunes you really want to sing. As you know from playing, once you get a few easy ones under your belt, you are 85% there. [your percent may vary]

[CES]

Niles' advice and examples, are, as usual, right on...

I used to make myself know the picking and singing parts cold before putting them together, but of late have found that I do better if I learn them together. I have to start very slowly and speed up, and still probably actually concentrate more on the playing first. Either way, it's a lot of work for me unless it's a simple melody and often-used chords (like Shawn Mullins' Beautiful Wreck or OCMS' Wagon Wheel). The more I practice the better I'm getting, though I still stink at it, and my voice doesn't help matters any...

My son has started taking drum lessons...I'm learning along with him for fun, and have been surprised at how difficult it is at first, but also at how it works out after just a few minutes of practice (so far we're just on the base, high hat, and snare and are keeping it REALLY simple). Niles, I can't imagine singing, playing mando, AND working your drum set-up!! Props, man, props...

[mee]

Initially for me I thought it would be impossible. But what I have realized is that if you know the song well, lyrics and chords, it really isn't too difficult. I don't pick and sing, picking definately takes all my brain power! Practice is the key.

[Rob Gerety]

The only way I have ever been able to do this with any degree of success from a performance point of view is to devote a very high percentage of my concentration to the singing. For me this means that I have to know the lyrics cold and I have to play the instrument almost without any conscious thought - at least while I am singing. I really have to concentrate a LOT on the singing or else my singing is really uninspired and boring (at best).

[ChrisStewart]

My singing IS really uninspired and boring at best.

I don't know if we are talking strumming, chopping or picking? (fairly easy, harder, hardest)
It takes lot's of practice.

No matter what you are doing it is always better to memorize the song and tune.

[AlanN]

Agree about memorizing the lyrics, this is crucial. Always cracks me up to see the guy at the jam with the big black book, can't sing a song without reading the words. That ain't for me.

And for me, playing mandolin is doing it all - rhythm, solos, back-up. Neither thing is harder or easier than the other, it's all the same bag.

[smsuryan]

i was a guitar player first...one day i just told myself "self, you already know how to play your guitar parts...so just play them and concentrate on your vox..." and i dont know how to describe it...i just sort of "let go" and didnt think about playing because my hands learned the parts and practiced them many many many times...like riding a bike i reckon...once i did it, now it seems easy..wellllll...i wouldnt say EASY but you know what i mean

[Rob Gerety]

one day i just told myself "self, you already know how to play your guitar parts...so just play them and concentrate on your vox..."

Yup. Got to concentrate on the voice. If playing the instrument or remembering lyrics is stealing your attention its tough.