Schertler Wireless

[mandowilli]

I have read the threads discussing the various possibilities but was wondering if anyone is actually using a DYN-M with a wireless system?

[mandroid]

There is a microphone adapter to wireless modify a standard dynamic Mic, AKG makes one.

They are probably lower end of the cost spectrum, You just plug the 2 together..

Might work for you. check it out, and see what you think. you ears are the final authority.

[foldedpath]

I don't own a Dyn-M, but it should be possible with a short adapter cable. You'll need to convert from the balanced output of the pickup, to a plug on the other end that matches your bodypack transmitter. Different wireless brands use different plugs, typically something like a locking mini-plug, or mini-XLR. Either way, the signal won't be balanced but that doesn't matter. If I remember right, the Dyn-M has a fairly hot output, but most transmitters have adjustable gain where that shouldn't be a problem.

[Jim Nollman]

Willi, if you do this, please report back here, since I can assure you that several of us Schertler users would be thankful to know the results of your experiment.

1. what is your choice of wireless system? Adaptor?
2. how does the wireless sound? Is it different than using a cable to connect?
3. what kind of distance does it transmit
4. how much did it cost

[mandowilli]

Thanks for the replies all.

I did my homework searching the archives and much has been discussed but I really was interested in any real hands on experience.

The AKG SO40 has been discontinued but there are other options that all add up to $300-$400 when all put together.

[mandowilli]

I did a little digging in the old gear box and low and behold, a low-z to high-z transformer. To see how it affected the signal strength I checked the level of the Schertler into my Roland AC-60 amp using the low-z connector provided then connected the transformer and noticed the level into the amp was lower but not unmanageable.

The biggest problem that I see in using this with a wireless transmitter would be the size of it. The total length is 6.25 inches and after plugging it in to the transmitter box it would stick out 5 inches beyond the length of the transmitter box and would amount to quite a rig to strap to oneself.

[mandowilli]

Did a lap around the internet and came up with a possible solution.

http://www.azdencorp.com/pdf/VHFinstructions.pdf

The receiver is a 200R and the XLR transmitter is a 31XT. The 31XT is very small and could easily be attached to the mando strap. The total solution would be just under $200.00.

Anyone had experience with Azden products?

I may go ahead and give it a try and will report back.

[foldedpath]

Oooh, this is a complicated topic, but it's a slow Sunday so here goes...

Willi. Azden makes inexpensive wireless systems designed mainly (as far as I can tell) for lav mics and consumer-grade video cameras. One good thing about the Azden is that it operates in the "old" VHF band that most wireless systems used before they moved to UHF. Now, UHF has become very problematical due to recent FCC and Congressional changes on the allowed use of these frequencies in the USA (different countries will have other regulations, but they're all going through this process). It's a mind-numbing, complicated topic, and probably needs a separate thread to discuss it (short version: use your current wireless rigs until they stop working).

The VHF band used by the Azden should be safe for a while, but the fact that Azden is using it at all, suggests that it may be a lower-quality system aimed mostly at vocal reproduction with lav mics, and maybe not the best thing for reproducing the sound of an acoustic instrument.

Some further info on wireless in general, and the state of the current market:

There is no analog wireless system that sounds identical to a cable (there are digital systems that get closer, I'll get to that in a minute). Analog wireless uses something called companding, which compresses and then partly restores the signal on the other end. It allows squeezing the audio into a narrow radio bandwidth, preserving the frequency range at the expense of dynamic range and transients. It's like a slight veil of compression over the signal. You'll hear it mostly in the pick attack on a mandolin or acoustic guitar. Its less noticeable on electric guitar or fiddle, where the transient attack on each note isn't as pronounced. More expensive wireless systems do a better job of companding, but you can still hear it in all analog systems. I hear it a little in my Sennheiser G3 system, if I really focus on it. Obviously it doesn't stop people from using wireless, but it's something to be aware of. Don't expect it to sound just like plugging in a cable.

There are a few newer digital wireless systems that avoid the companding problem, and sound closer to a wire cable. This is probably the way the industry is going, since everyone is getting crowded into narrower available bands, and digital offers some tricks that make sharing the same frequencies easier. The main trade-off is a tiny bit of latency (delay) for the analog/digital - digital/analog conversion, whereas analog systems function at essentially the speed of light. You may or may not notice it, depending on how sensitive you are to latency. Digital systems also tend to drain batteries faster than analog, but that seems to be improving. The current digital systems also avoid (so far) the problematic UHF bands, operating up higher in the 900+ MHz and GigaHertz range.

If you're in the market for a wireless rig that avoids the UHF frequency hassles in the USA, and sounds reasonably close to a cable, then check out the new Line6 Relay system. I haven't used it, but early reports seem positive. Line6 also makes the older X2 digital wireless system. It's less expensive, but I'm not sure it's still in production, and the transmitters had a reputation for short battery life.

A final note: Any wireless system is a potential weak link in your PA rig, because a stronger signal could stomp on it at any time. The pros hire people to baby-sit their rigs, but us weekend warriors don't have that luxury. Keep a cable handy, because sooner or later you'll need it.

[mandowilli]

Good post Foldedpath. From what I have read the differences between the UHF and VHF are minor when used in a small venue without many wireless systems functioning at the same time. The Azden system that I mentioned above is designed to connect a dynamic mic with the typical XLR connection not a mini condenser.

The digital Line6 that you mentioned looks like it would be a good option but alas, it has a 1/8 TRS input for the receiver and the Schertler is XLR and this is the biggest issue in regard to getting one of these to go wireless.

And always good advice to have a plan B!

[foldedpath]

If you're still interested in the Line6 gear, it's not that hard to adapt XLR to 1/8" mini plug. You'd want a short pigtail adapter cable like that anyway, instead of plugging a big XLR adapter directly into the transmitter, for strain relief.

Note: If you do use an adapter, it needs to be one that unbalances the XLR output of the Schertler, feeding the transmitter just a one signal and ground. That's the way transmitters work with instrument pickup outputs. The other wire is used to send bias voltage from the transmitter to condenser mics (the wireless version of phantom power), and while I don't think it would hurt the Schertler, it's something that the pickup isn't expecting to see. Check the specs for the transmitter to see which pin is carrying the bias voltage, and lift that wire if necessary inside the XLR to 1/8" TRS adapter cable or plug.

[Jim Nollman]

I'm going to be the odd voice out here, and declare that I will not use an XLR to 1/4 or 1/8 adaptor with my Schertler. Until the adaptor is made way smaller than it is right now, and until someone figures out a way to lock the connecting parts to one another, it's too bulky, and too many things can go wrong on stage.

[Spruce]

Until the adaptor is made way smaller than it is right now, and until someone figures out a way to lock the connecting parts to one another, it's too bulky, and too many things can go wrong on stage.

But how are you going to play on the streets of Friday Harbor?

[mandroid]

I got a matching transformer with a 6" section of cable to the 1/4" plug. the leverage on the jack
is no more than any 1/4" plug would be..
they built in a bypass switch , so it will also just be an adapter , and not raise the impedance , if desired.

there are locking 1/4" jacks , but I'd think if you're already going to have a transmitter bag on the strap
adding space for the other hardware isnt much of a leap.

[foldedpath]

Also, the transmitter doesn't have to be on the strap. It's convenient, and rock players do that all the time with guitars and bass, but I think it's a bit clumsy to use on something as small as a mandolin. It can also be visually distracting to the audience, especially if it has a constantly lit LED or other status indicator.

I keep the transmitter pack clipped to my belt where it's less obvious, and I just plug and unplug at the transmitter when I need to set the mandolin down (remembering to hit the mute switch!). That also lets me swap instruments easily, since I can't afford a transmitter and receiver for each instrument when I'm playing several on a gig. Not saying that's the best way to do it, but take a look at any YouTube clip of a Punch Brothers gig, and you'll see they keep the wireless rigs hidden and unobtrusive. It preserves the visual illusion that they're playing unamplified on the stage.

[mandowilli]

I agree, placing the transmitter on the mandolin strap would be problematic. Here is a cable similar to what mandriod mentioned.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...S_Male_to.html

I don't think that it would be too hard to come up with an alternate method of attaching the transmitter and this 1.5 ft cable attached to the Schertler XLR. It has got to be better than being tethered to the stage cable.

I may be going this route and will have to do a little more homework on the wireless rig.

[mandroid]

I tend to stick the plugs in a vest pocket, so missteps are trod on a Mic cable..
another tailored pocket for the gadgetry, perhaps, back of the vest..?


(the one above is the 'gender' for converting a TRS built in, like C Dyn s, to plug into a Mic cable)
this is the other XLR gender
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...S_Male_to.html

here is the piece I was referring to, .. its F on transformer, 1/4" M on the pigtail

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=240-398

[Jim Nollman]

Now, now, Mangler of Bluegrass, let's enlighten all these nice folks to the fact that the photo is not me, nor is it a scene of beautiful downtown Friday Harbor. Nonetheless, that's one very nice tele getting strummed and thrummed along the Eastsound board walk. How was the Barter Fair this year?

And to you, Mandroid, thanks for the tip about that Lynx XLR to balanced 1/4 cable. That's much better than the bulky adaptor, that I keep rejecting. The 10' version will solve all my problems. Well maybe not all of them.

[mandowilli]

Well, in the meantime while I sort out all of these wireless possibilities I am going to wire one of these up on the xlr that I am using with my Schertler.

http://www.amazon.com/Neutrik-NC3FXS.../dp/B00067JSMI

[mandroid]

Switched cable end is useful , should I be out of arm's reach of the mute button on the amp.

[mandowilli]

Mandroid,
Like you, I have the Roland AC-60. I used to have to turn around to hit the tiny mute button and at the time was using a phantom powered crown mini mic that would squeal if I wasn't careful. I got a Boss FS-5L and now I can look straight down and hit the button in addition to muting during tuning. It also has a light to tell you what state it is in.