Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage

[Irish Mandolin]

Hi all Im looking for some help with amplifying my circle sound hole mandolin and banjo for gigs in noisy venues. My mandolin has a unique bridge which I don't want to change and most pick ups require changing the bridge (apart from transducer mic which i was advised to buy). I was also advised to purchase a pre amp and pedal like this one

http://www.zzounds.com/item--WHRSELECTOR

because feed back and noise with be an issue from the idle instrument.

I originally thought I'd get away with just playing into a mic but i was told this would cause loads of problems.

Does anyone have any advice on transducer mics for mandolin and banjo?some one told me the K&K twin fusion were good but would they work on a circle sound hole mandolin are they just designed for f wholed mandos?

Do I need a pre amp or DI box? Are they worth buying?

Does anyone use the A/B pedal or would i have a problem with the idle instrument?

Anyone have any other info on amplifying more than one acoustic instrument for a noisy gig environment?

Can anyone suggest a modal of any of the hardware i mention (I was hoping to spend less than 500 Euro for the 2 pick ups, preamp and possibly A/B pedal if its necessary?

Sorry if this basic stuff but I'm normally use to playing on amplified

Thanks for any help

[mrmando]

Get thee a Schertler.

[pops1]

I would put a pickup in each instrument and run each into an a/b pedal then into a single preamp that way you are only using one pre and the other instrument wont be a problem.

[mandroid]

Roland AC 60 (or 90) can run a Schertler as a Mic in one channel,
and a piezo or magnetic pickup in the other.
there are stereo pre outs on the back to run each channel separately to a house mixer desk.

you just set one instrument down and pick the other one up, is all..
The AC functions well as your monitor.
+ will accept a Speaker stand in the bottom of the cabinet.

[Tim2723]

Hi and welcome,

I normally would also recommend a Schertler pickup, but in this case it would exceed your budget significantly to own two of them.

The K&K twin Fusion was designed for F-hole instruments. As you can see in the link below, the wire passes into the F-hole from outside. On a round-hole mandolin, the wire is in the way:

http://kksound.com/mandolintwinfusion.html

The K&K Twin Internal is better suited for round hole instruments. Here you can see it installed in a round hole mandolin:

http://kksound.com/mandolintwininternal.html

The K&K Twin Internal requires it to be mounted inside the mandolin, and that means drilling out the end-pin for the jack. This is best done professionally. If you don't like that, then I recommend the Baggs Radius pickup which can be externally mounted on any kind of mandolin:

http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idProduct=8424

For the banjo, K&K makes the Banjo Twin pickup, here:

http://kksound.com/banjotwin.html

All of these pickups require a preamp to work their best. I recommend the Baggs Para Acoustic DI:

http://www.music123.com/Accessories/...t?src=ZWWRWXYB

You would run cables from the two instruments into an A/B box, a short cable from the A/B box to the Para Acoustic DI, then one longer cable to the amplifier or sound board.


You can significantly reduce your cost by eliminating the A/B box (and frankly, USD$109 is a LOT of money for such a simple device). Since the preamplifier has a volume control, simply turn the volume to zero, unplug one instrument, plug the other in, then adjust the volume and EQ for the new instrument. Now you only need two pickups, two cables, and the preamplifier. This is also much easier to do with less to carry and set up. Since you'll want to adjust the volume and EQ even with an A/B box, why bother with all that equipment?

These and similar products can be purchased from any number of suppliers worldwide, and I am not recommending any one supplier over another. These are just convenient links to demonstrate.

There are many good choices for pickups and preamplifiers, but these links illustrate the basic idea.

[Tim2723]

P.S. I also like the GoldTone SMP pickup for banjo. It's a magnetic pickup (like an electric guitar) and requires no preamplifier, although it benefits from one for tone and volume control.

http://www.instrumentalley.com/Gold-...o-p/gt-smp.htm

[craig.collas]

One of the duo models might be worth a look
http://www.fire-eye.com/welcomepage.htm

[Dan Hulse]

I concur w/ Tim2723, nix the A/B box, and add a Korg Pitchblack true bypass tuner. The tuner disengages the signal (mutes) while you switch instruments. Only thing about running the mando and tenor banjo into the same chanel is that you may need to adjust the EQ. I currently switch between mando, bazouki, tenor banjo (with a single K&K), guitar and bass. I'm running into a single chanel of a keyboard amp. As for the mando there are numerous threads, but mine has magnetic a pick-up, and my bazouki & guitar have transducers.

[Tim2723]

I like the idea of putting a tuner in the line. It provides the mute function for switching instruments and lets you do a quick tune up on the instrument that's been sitting idle. I used to switch between mandolin, tenor banjo, and guitar with an A/B/C box, but I got rid of all that with just a mutable tuner (I use the Boss model). With the A/B/C box I had too much to handle and a tangle of cables at the end of the night. My instruments had preamps built in, so I ended up with a tuner, two cables, and no hassles.

You're sure to hear lots of recommendations. Some players have very elaborate, complex systems that do all manner of things and work beautifully for them. Personally, I now have a big box full of unused widgets that I got tired of messing with. At one point I carried a pedalboard with switching networks, preamps, tuner, a power supply, and a volume pedal. I now use the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

[Mandobart]

Lots of good suggestions. There are hundreds of choices. I've posted this everytime this question comes up, as it has worked well for me and I play out at clubs/bars 2 - 3 times per week. I use this pickup which I find every bit as good as my K&K which cost quite a bit more. I use this pre-amp for several different instruments (mandolin, OM, guitar and mandocello). I usually plug into whatever PA is available where I play. For changing instruments, I turn down the PA level for my channel and switch. Low tech, low cost, but it works for me.

Here are a few more threads to read on the subject. There are many, many more to search up:

one
two
three
four
five

[Irish Mandolin]

Thanks again for all the replies some great help here as usual

I think I'm going to go with the L.R. Baggs Radius M Mandolin

http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idProduct=8424

Has anyone used an external transducer like the Baggs? Is there much of a difference in sound quality between the external pick up that sits on the outside of the body and an internal transducer pick up like the K & K pick up thats fitted inside?

Some people suggested the boss ls2 line splitter would this do as my preamp or should I buy a preamp too?

I was looking at that 2 chan preamp before but im not sure if i could use an A B line splitter with it cause there's only one out
http://www.ultrasoundamps.com/image-viewer-dimax.html
..so if i had a pick up in the mando and banjo going into the 2 dif chan on the preamp the splitter wouldnt work or is there another way of setting it up?

Can anyone suggest a dual chan pedal preamp with the A B chan function?

[Irish Mandolin]

Tim I was advised to get the A B box because the idle instrument would cause feed back while not being played...that was the only reason i was going to buy one...that true?...also thanks for your post its helped a lot.

[Irish Mandolin]

@1-2-many...do you prefer playing with the transducer or mic? any reasons why?...tuner looks like a good idea...i was only buying the a/b box to mute the instrument i wasnt playing..if i wanted to swap instruments during a song would the Korg Pitchblack true bypass tuner work for that..is there a pop or noise when swapping instruments?

[Irish Mandolin]

What would you buy if it was for you..banjo transducer or the magnetic one
http://www.goldtone.com/products/det...ag-Pick-up-SMP
http://kksound.com/banjotwin.html

[Tim2723]

There's always a chance of an idle instrument feeding back if it's pickup is active. An A/B box solves the problem of course, but at a cost. Simply unplugging it or turning its volume to zero is the cheapest, easiest route. For my money, an A/B box is a complicated solution to a simple problem. Banjos are especially prone to feeding back when left active on a stand. That big, responsive tympanic membrane they call the head is just waiting to pick up vibrations from everywhere.

Tuners like the Korg and Boss that have mute functions make no noise when you engage the mute function. You can then plug and unplug in complete silence.

I've used contact transducers like the K&K with good results, but lately I've come to like the SMP from Gold Tone. It has a good, natural sound (for a pickup), has no handling noise (the nasty rattles and thumps from touching the instrument) and hasn't caused me any hassles. I've cranked my banjo to volumes that make bagpipers wince, and not a threat of feedback.

If you go with the Baggs Radius or K&K you'll need the preamp. It's not just a good idea, it's the other half of the device. The pickup is sold separately and can be used with any number of other preamps, but you need a preamp. It's the 'guts' of the system. Not buying a preamp is the number one mistake made by newcomers to the transducer world. Some folks report good results without one, but those are rare and often somewhat questionable.

[Irish Mandolin]

hey craig the
http://www.fire-eye.com/ret-ds.htm
looks great...have you ever used this product or any of their equipment iv never heard of them

[Tim2723]

That does look interesting and would solve a lot of problems if it works well. I'm not sure I like the idea of a simple treble control for the EQ, but it's a nifty widget that seems to combine the preamp and A/B box functions very neatly.

[Tim2723]

Actually, I don't recall you mentioning your budget. If you have the money to spend, having a pickup on each instrument and a separate preamp for each is a great way to go. You set your EQ for each instrument and then just deal with a volume control. Expensive yes, but very convenient and useful.

[Chief]

I play multiple instruments in noisy settings, and have tried all kinds of things-from AB boxes to a plug with a shut off on it. I've discovered the ultimate tool that has simplified my life, and works and sounds unbelievable. The Baggs Venue. A pre-amp with many EQ settings to get the perfect sound, coupled with a built in tuner that cuts the signal when depressed, making changing instruments a snap, quietly. And, this allows you to use one cord for as many instruments as you've got. A real plus! The tuner is big and bright, and easy to use on stage. Another added bonus is the signal boost foot switch, which allows you to kick up the volume for leads. I can't imagine ever needing another pre-amp/tuner/EQ. They're not cheap, but way worth it.

[Dagger Gordon]

As regards your banjo, is yours an open-backed instrument?

If so, try tying a mic inside the head with elastic bands (seriously).

I have a cheap Yamaha mic I got from Lidl (cheap German supermarket chain with outlets all over Europe) with an on/off switch. Hardly cost anything, and works fine! Feedback has not been a problem, and is easily loud enough. I have to say that some sound guys have been surprised at my method, but they admit it does work.
I used to tie a Shure 58 inside, with the head of the mic just below the bridge. Worked OK as well, but it was a bit big and it's better if there's an on/off switch.

Cheap and cheerful, but it works.

I also seem to remember reading that Tim O'Brien had some success buying something really cheap for his banjo in Maplin, a UK electronics store, which he thought worked very well, but I haven't been able to find it since he seems to have re-organised his web-site and I'm not sure the article is there any more (an account of a UK tour about two years ago, I think).

Getting a good sound on a mandolin is trickier, usually because it sounds more electric than most people would like, but on another thread I have posted that a Boss GE-7 Graphic Equaliser (about £70 in Britain) has helped a lot with my mandolin tone, and has boosted the signal a lot. It doesn't actually say that it works as a pre-amp, but that seems to be what is happening with the signal, so it might be possible to dispense with the pre-amp and use that instead. I'll try and find out more about that point.

Dagger

[mandroid]

drum mics have smaller bodies, , capsule part of the mic is a small portion of the whole.
maybe one of those fit better..
someone mentioned a small dynamic headset mic , that may adapt.

[Jim Nollman]

Never saw that Baggs Vantage before. Impressive array of functions. If they had only made it with an XLR input, it would be a mandatory addition for all us Schertler users.

[mandroid]

Wonder what's involved replacing the TR jack with a TRS in and out
seems like mechanics,

then keeping the cold signal return wire , and the ground for the braided shield of the in and output cable separated ..

the + hot lead is the one going thru the circuit processing,,

the 'They' may include running the piece thru a tech's bench
since the mass production probably won't change for a small niche user.
after all, the Baggs folks produce stuff compatible with their other products.

But not necessarily other competing companies stuff..

I had thought about a 1/4" balanced I/O on a pedal tuner, but
get no work where I need one..

[Dan Hulse]

@1-2-many...do you prefer playing with the transducer or mic? any reasons why?...tuner looks like a good idea...i was only buying the a/b box to mute the instrument i wasnt playing..if i wanted to swap instruments during a song would the Korg Pitchblack true bypass tuner work for that..is there a pop or noise when swapping instruments?

For live applications a transducer, but only because I couldn't compete volume wise with a microphone against the other amplified instruments, or even acoustic drums and/or bagpipes without feed back or sound bleed. I have never tried a mini-mic mounted directly on my instrument. This has been my experience with a fixed mic on a stand. A good in-line tuner makes life so much easier. No there should be no sound when the tuner is engaged and the signal is interrupted.