right hand problems

[ald]

mandolirius, thanks for answering my question abouthe "arc". So I must have a serious problem there if end up further away from the bridge on G than E. And does Mike Marshall actually point his pick more towards the bridge.?
I did the three-finger grip for ever and ever and it was like giving up smoking once I reliniquished the three-finger habit (well, several months after I had given up). Then I weaned myself off resting on the bridge and I find the whole thing most liberating, despite my other residual problems.

[mandolirius]

mandolirius, thanks for answering my question abouthe "arc". So I must have a serious problem there if end up further away from the bridge on G than E. And does Mike Marshall actually point his pick more towards the bridge.?
I did the three-finger grip for ever and ever and it was like giving up smoking once I reliniquished the three-finger habit (well, several months after I had given up). Then I weaned myself off resting on the bridge and I find the whole thing most liberating, despite my other residual problems.

I don't think you necessarily have a problem. There is quite a range in the physiology of people's hands - shapes and sizes, finger length and so on. Mike actually comments on this in the video, acknowledging there are different ways to use your right hand. That said, he goes on to make his recommendations. I wouldn't say he's "pointing" his pick. He describes it as "angling" it towards the bridge, so it's hitting the strings at a slight angle, allowing the pick to travel across the strings more easily.

[mandolirius]

Sometimes I wonder how much interest there is in the techniques of actually playing the mandolin there is around here. It seems like people want to talk about anything else but that. However, for those that are interested, I've been noticing some improvement in my particular problem, which was traveling backwards on the upstroke. I'm getting to the point where I don't have to fight the instinct to do two quick downstrokes, so I'm slowly teaching my right hand to switch directions. I don't always execute cleanly and sometimes even miss the string completely, or catch the string I'm trying to hop over but I'm trying not to concern myself too much about that. I'm assuming all that will improve once the move I'm trying to execute becomes completely instinctive. I think the improvement has to do with playing things slowly and with total control and paying attention to the arc sweep of the pick and trying to let a natural pattern develop.

[Brent Hutto]

Speaking only for myself, I am very interested in playing technique but find discussing it on a text-based forum almost entirely ineffectual. I can get more benefit from a three-minute visual "discussion" via Skype with my mandolin teacher about some little detail of picking technique than I could get from a hundred posts back and forth trying to discuss it with words.

The latter stages of this thread are a case in point. Someone suggests that the pick ought to follow such and such an arc across the four courses. You mention that it doesn't happen that way for your picking stroke. Then it is mentioned that some people's hands are configured so that the arc doesn't work as it was described.

At that point it's guesswork as to whether your hand is unusually shaped or you are misinterpreting the description or you need to change your pick path and hand motion. Or heck, maybe the original description was even incorrect. I don't see how that really served to enlighten your search for better technique. It seems that in the end you did some trial and error, perhaps on an initial path suggested by your interpretation of the arc comment.

Hence, a lot of us talk endlessly about mandolins and picks and Tone-Gards but have relatively little to say about hand position or pick path or fitting fingers onto adjacent strings vs. barreing. Some topics are amenable talk, others are not. All in my personal opinion, of course. Not trying to tell anyone else how best to learn...

[Barbara Shultz]

mandolirius, congrats on making progress. I am constantly trying to analyze and improve my technique, or lack thereof! Yes, sometimes, talking about something is difficult to get across what you mean, but sometimes, something just clicks!

I find that watching videos, especially those in the Song A Week Social Group, really helps. It helps to watch your own playing, either in a video, or in a mirror.

What I do, when working on something specific, whether it be my pick direction, pick angle, etc., is to play a tune that I know very well, that I can play without thinking. Then, I play it, while completely concentrating on the technique I'm working on. Slowly, repeatedly.

[jasona]

If I understand your problem correctly, your right hand probably feels like it's getting out of sync with that upstroke, going back and "grabbing" that upper string in a kind of jerky way... I am understanding you right? Whole right hand seems too lift up when you go back up?

I was going back over some notes from earlier lessons. One thing that was stressed to me was to play through both strings. To do that, visualize the pick is actually embedded in your wrist. Pick notes on one string with that wrist, but move your arm at the elbow to change strings. Keep that wrist doing the up and down only. This has really helped me to quick trying to push the pick to the strings and instead drive my pick through them (a light grip is really necessary here as well!).

Not sure if this helps mandolirus.

[mandolirius]

I was going back over some notes from earlier lessons. One thing that was stressed to me was to play through both strings. To do that, visualize the pick is actually embedded in your wrist. Pick notes on one string with that wrist, but move your arm at the elbow to change strings. Keep that wrist doing the up and down only. This has really helped me to quick trying to push the pick to the strings and instead drive my pick through them (a light grip is really necessary here as well!).

Not sure if this helps mandolirus.

Well, I appreciate the input. I've thought about that and many other issues related to hand/wrist/elbow movements. I think my technique is on pretty solid ground. I have a tendancy to let my elbow drop sometimes so my arm is lining up with the tailpiece, bascally horizontol. I have an armrest mostly for that reason. The edge of the body never bothered me and I'm not a big sweater but having it there reminds me to keep my arm on it, which gives my wrist a bit of an arch and angles the pick toward the bridge. I'm hitting both strings in the pair, on both the up and downstroke. I've pretty much narrowed my problem down to one specific situation - where I have to go up on one string, down on the one above it and back to an upstroke on the lower string. I have trouble with other upstrokes too, but I can usually correct the problem with a bit of work. This specific situation I'm dealing with is going to take longer. A bit of a project, I think.

[mandolirius]

The other thing I've done that seems to be helping is switch to a lighter pick. I'm using a BlueChip TP40. The lighter weight and slightly smaller size (I was using a BC TAD60).

[mandolirius]

Speaking only for myself, I am very interested in playing technique but find discussing it on a text-based forum almost entirely ineffectual. I can get more benefit from a three-minute visual "discussion" via Skype with my mandolin teacher about some little detail of picking technique than I could get from a hundred posts back and forth trying to discuss it with words.

- Hi Brent, I meant to reply to this post when I first saw it but didn't have the time and it slipped my mind. I don't think the point is whether this is the best type of forum for learning. I doubt anyone thinks it is and it certainly can't compete with live interaction or even skype. But, it is a discussion forum and this is something I wanted to discuss.

The latter stages of this thread are a case in point. Someone suggests that the pick ought to follow such and such an arc across the four courses. You mention that it doesn't happen that way for your picking stroke. Then it is mentioned that some people's hands are configured so that the arc doesn't work as it was described.

At that point it's guesswork as to whether your hand is unusually shaped or you are misinterpreting the description or you need to change your pick path and hand motion. Or heck, maybe the original description was even incorrect. I don't see how that really served to enlighten your search for better technique. It seems that in the end you did some trial and error, perhaps on an initial path suggested by your interpretation of the arc comment.

- All that is true but in the end, the "arc" observation did prove helpful. It got me looking at the way my hand traveled. As a result, I realized I was fighting the natural path a bit and trying to hit the upstroke in a more parallel way than was natural.

Hence, a lot of us talk endlessly about mandolins and picks and Tone-Gards but have relatively little to say about hand position or pick path or fitting fingers onto adjacent strings vs. barreing. Some topics are amenable talk, others are not. All in my personal opinion, of course. Not trying to tell anyone else how best to learn...

Mostly what I was looking for was just comraderie. I know others have struggled with this particular problem and I also know that dogged, determined practice was the only solution. I just wanted to know how others dealt with it, felt about it etc.

That said, I have continued to make progress. One thing I've done is just give up playing things up to tempo for now. Most of my practice is at slow and medium temps. I'm trying to turn it into a sort of meditation routine.

I've also incorporated a type of "flick" on the upstroke. That's not an ideal description because it's tied in with the movement that I make to hop over the higher string after the downstroke. What I do is end that movement with a bit of a flick, which seems to be helping as well.

[jasona]

I've made a right hand breakthrough since I started playing again, in terms of putting tone and speed together. Its more related to putting a few pieces I've been working on for some time together at the same time--picking at a relaxed wrist, changing strings at elbow, holding pick light so it moves freely over the strings, speed like tremolo but on the melody lines, fretting with a light hand and proper placement of the fingers on strings to get good tone. It actually sounds good, and still does as I take the speed up to 200 bpm and above. Its really doing wonders for my confidence as well.

I still need to learn a lot more tunes...but the time away from playing has helped process a lot of information it appears.

[mandolirius]

I've made a right hand breakthrough since I started playing again, in terms of putting tone and speed together. Its more related to putting a few pieces I've been working on for some time together at the same time--picking at a relaxed wrist, changing strings at elbow, holding pick light so it moves freely over the strings, speed like tremolo but on the melody lines, fretting with a light hand and proper placement of the fingers on strings to get good tone. It actually sounds good, and still does as I take the speed up to 200 bpm and above. Its really doing wonders for my confidence as well.

I still need to learn a lot more tunes...but the time away from playing has helped process a lot of information it appears.

Good to hear. Was the hiatus voluntary or necessary and how much time did you take off?

[jasona]

Good to hear. Was the hiatus voluntary or necessary and how much time did you take off?

Voluntary mostly although I did have some minor surgery. Just not in the right mental space TBH. Didn't play for probably around 6 months.

[fredfrank]

I was at a point where I had no problems upstroke or down, whichever was required, until I injured my right hand a while back. I actually punctured my right wrist with a piece of glass about an inch or two up my arm from the wrist. The net effect was that the heel of my hand went numb all the way across my hand. Since I rest the heel of my hand on the strings behind the bridge, my point of reference is pretty much gone. As a result, I hit a lot of 'air balls' where i miss the intended string, mostly when I am going from one string to the other. And mostly when I'm headed for the E string.

I thought that time would eventually take care of this, but it has not, so my remedy has been to get out of any performance situations (bands) and just relegate the mandolin to jam sessions. Better than giving up entirely, I suppose.

[jasona]

I'm so sorry to hear about the nerve damage Fred.

Have you tried using your curled fingers on a finger rest/pickguard for your new point of reference? It works for Grisman.

[bratsche]

It's pretty basic. Stick your index and middle finger together, like they were one unit. Put a flatpick where the two fingers meet then clamp your thumb down on it. Arch the two fingers a bit to make them more rigid. Try it out once, to satisfy your curiousity. Then never do it again.

That isn't how I did/do it at all. When I use 3 fingers, my index and middle finger are separated (pick must be a large enough type to accomplish this) and the thumb is opposite the middle finger. Index finger skin slightly overlaps the front edge of the pick to give stability, most but not all of the power on upstrokes is exerted by the middle finger. (Index and middle fingers sort of mimic the roles they play when used to hold/balance a bow, hence its instinctiveness to me when I was a new player).

bratsche

[mandolirius]

That isn't how I did/do it at all. When I use 3 fingers, my index and middle finger are separated (pick must be a large enough type to accomplish this) and the thumb is opposite the middle finger. Index finger skin slightly overlaps the front edge of the pick to give stability, most but not all of the power on upstrokes is exerted by the middle finger. (Index and middle fingers sort of mimic the roles they play when used to hold/balance a bow, hence its instinctiveness to me when I was a new player).

bratsche

Yes, I've seen that method too. In fact, I used to be in a band with a guy who played that way, a style that resulted from an injury to his right index finger. I don't know if it's the more common way of playing with three fingers since there are so few people that use that grip.

[mandolirius]

I'm so sorry to hear about the nerve damage Fred.

Have you tried using your curled fingers on a finger rest/pickguard for your new point of reference? It works for Grisman.

Works for me, too.

[tenorhighc]

Hello all,
For me, the upstroke and string crossing is of utmost importance to have as a "natural" part of your playing.

It's when you have to cross the wrong way, i.e. leaving the "D" string with an up, then needing to jump over it to hit the "A" string on a "down". Or, being in a spot where you have ended with a "down" on the E and need to jump it to play the "A" string. Anyone can get it, and get it at higher speeds, but it isn't a quick and easy thing to learn.

I have friends on guitar and mandolin (good players) that have given up on mastering this. One friend has changed his picking style, switches notes around in order to not have to make that awkward picking combo. Problem is, now he spends time changing parts, when if he would have just practiced it in the first place, he'd have it by now!

When I make this opposite direction move on a "down" pick stroke, I actually turn my pick a little. It's a slight turn forward and down that allows me to jump over that sting, e.g. up on a "G" and down on a "D". If I am playing very fast, you can still see it happen. My pick turns very slightly down and forward in a split second for the cross.
Another thing, If I am moving the other direction and need an upstroke on an "A" right after I left the "E" on a down, I notice my arm pulls up, just a hair.
These are two little tricks that work for me. I've been doing both of these little adjustments for years. That doesn't mean they will work for everyone - But these are things I personally do that make my picking work at faster speeds. One thing for sure, fast combo's of notes need to be alternated!

hope this helps! Check out the solo on my rendition of Tubular Bells on the mp3 page. There are quite a few lines will all kinds of opposite string crosses.

[mandolirius]

Thanks for the reply, Jason (cool version of TB, btw). That's the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate when I opened this thread. There is something a bit unnatural about that move and I know folks have developed various "tricks" or whatever you want to call the quirky moves they make to accomplish it.

<When I make this opposite direction move on a "down" pick stroke, I actually turn my pick a little. It's a slight turn forward and down that allows me to jump over that sting, e.g. up on a "G" and down on a "D". If I am playing very fast, you can still see it happen. My pick turns very slightly down and forward in a split second for the cross.>

I've noticed I do the same thing in that type of situation, which gives me far less trouble than the next one:

<Another thing, If I am moving the other direction and need an upstroke on an "A" right after I left the "E" on a down, I notice my arm pulls up, just a hair.>

I don't think I do that. The arm, or wrist is moving "up" on an upstroke in the sense that it's going toward your head rather than your feet, but do you mean pulling up in the sense of lifting off of the top, in an outward kind of motion, if I've managed to explain what I mean?
These are two little tricks that work for me. I've been doing both of these little adjustments for years. That doesn't mean they will work for everyone - But these are things I personally do that make my picking work at faster speeds.

[fredfrank]

I'm so sorry to hear about the nerve damage Fred.

Have you tried using your curled fingers on a finger rest/pickguard for your new point of reference? It works for Grisman.

Yeah, I didn't use a finger rest for many years, but now I won't play without one. Still tough to accurately move from one set of strings to another. I tend to rethink my intended melody to minimize string hopping, anymore. It's always fun trying to retrain yourself things you've done for 30 years!

[mandolirius]

I guess I'm being a bit perverse in keeping this thread alive when there's clearly very little interest but I figure someone might find it helpful in the years to come.

I am definitely noticing some progress. I'm finding the move less awkward-feeling and I'm able to do it at medium tempos fairly smoothly. Some days are better than others but in general, there is definitely forward momentum.

So, if anyone is reading this and having the same problem I am with right hand movement, take heart. With some focus, dedication and determination, this problem can be tackled. I haven't licked it yet but I have a lot more confidence that I will. I'm not allowing myself to become impatient. I hope to be able to make that move at performing-type tempos by next summer, which seems realistic if I stick to my practice regime.

[jasona]

Glad to hear it.

I'm making strides in holding the puck and right wrist loose and fretting really lightly with the left hand, both of which make my tone and speed better I think.

[mandolirius]

I've kept this thread going for some unknown reason. I know a few people talked about their own right hand struggles but, for the most part, the patrons of the Cafe have ignored it. I know the reason isn't because there aren't right hand problems out there. Maybe it's just a little too close to the bone and people don't want to talk about (let along confront) what they percieve as their deficiencies.

I get that. I didn't want to talk about about it for years. I knew my three-finger grip was wrong but I deluded myself into thinking I could make it work for me. And I wasn't entirely wrong, I did make it work. But I wasn't getting the sound I wanted. I played fluidly but almost delicately. I had a "soft" sound. But then I ran into physical problems, latched onto some long-remembered advice and changed my right hand technique completely.

This time I wanted to it right by the book and the one thing that I've avoided tackling head on was my tendance to combine two downstrokes when it seemed easier to do that. The real reason was that I had problems with the upstroke in certain situations. This thread was about my decision to acknowledge that and deal with it head on. So, for the past few months I've been working on those exact situations that give me the most trouble with the upstroke and I have seen a definite improvement. I listened to all the advice I could, including some offered on this thread, and it has yielded results. I still have a way to go, but I know I'll get there now.

So, if anyone out there has been following this thread and wondering if they should do something similar, I say - I don't know. I think it depends on where you are in the journey. But if you think you're at a place where you really could put other playing goals aside for a few months and really tackle your technique problems, I say do it! BTW, I have learned a lot of tunes and continued to progress on other fronts. But whenever I encountered a situation where my upstroke problem reared its ugly head, I stopped and dealt with it straight on. As I said, I'm not there yet but I know now will be.

[Brent Hutto]

Having only played mandolin for 5-6 months I have nothing but problems. Right-hand, left-hand, coordinating the hands. Hopefully the fact that I have a mandolin teacher who see me play on a weekly basis will help me avoid problems that get worse over time rather than better but even the most cautious approach will eventually hit a stumbling block that takes a couple backward steps to correct before moving forward.

At my most recent lesson it was suggested I might want to work on getting my upstrokes somewhere close to as loud as my downstrokes. So I guess at minimum I will be learning one or two fewer fiddle tunes this week while doing triplets with the recorder rolling. I figure with any luck my progress will include some manageable chunks of purely technique development along and along rather than hitting a realization point somewhere down the road and having to really relearn something ingrained. I hope.

[jasona]

I knew my three-finger grip was wrong but I deluded myself into thinking I could make it work for me. And I wasn't entirely wrong, I did make it work.

This was the grip that I learned from Bob Applebaum when I was taking lessons from him, FWIW.

Your comment about the two down strokes sounds more like pick direction issues than a right hand (grip) problem per se--unless they are different thoughts in your post. I think it is one of the most important parts of playing--if this isn't correct you will always fall apart when you get up to speed. You are right to spend time working on it!