Gibson production

[fiddler37]

The question was asked, but I did not see the answer:

When will Gibson resume production of mandolins and banjos?

[Big Joe]

Since they lost the facility they were building, the tooling, machinery, parts, and woods, it can be pretty well assured it will be awhile. Since then the banjo builder, Tony Wray has left Gibson and now builds banjos for Sullivan banjos. He certainly took a very good product to the next level for Sullivan.

It is hard to say when they will begin production. It is far more important for the bread and butter divisions to be back into full swing. The bluegrass division is more of an afterthought any more. I am sure they will begin building banjos and mandolins again, but I am equally sure they will not be the same product they have been in the past. I would be very surprised if they built in the same way as they had in the past. It is more likely they will upgrade the tooling and manufacturing process to represent modern manufacturing standards. There will likely be a lot less hands on and not as likely to have staff that is passionate about the mandolin or banjo specifically. It is very possible no one will really be a mandolin or banjo player doing the work on a daily basis as it was a few years ago at OAI.

That does not mean they won't be good instruments, just different from what we have been used to for the last couple decades. I don't know that is bad, just different. In any case, I'm not sure anyone can answer the when question until they actually have a date set by the CEO and the equipment and tooling in place. Just my opinion.

[300win]

Should this happen, wouldn't it make all current Gibson mandolins and banjos appreciate in value ?

[Mandolin Mick]

I think that this is sad. When things like this happen it's almost always a turn for the worse.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote from Mick - ".....it's almost always a turn for the worse" . The sad part about that if it turns out to be true,is that it will be because of a concious decision by the Gibson company. It doesn't necessarily have to be so. The investment in new plant, tooling etc.,will be huge for Gibson & i take Joe's point re.getting back to their 'bread & butter' divisions - that makes sense,they have to make some cash quickly & that's the way to do it. However,the builders of the Mandolins & Banjos were there before & unless as in the case of the person Joe mentioned,they can be there again. The practices under which they worked can be re-instated & business as usual,if they want it to be. Nobody is forcing Gibson to do anything that they didn't or couldn't do before.
I'm well aware that after such a disaster,Gibson could look to do things 'differently' as part of their re-built business,but if they recognise that we,as prospective customers,will only be satisfied with Mandolins & Banjos built 'they way they were' before, because of the perceived quality,then they can do it. It remains to be seen if they will. Big Joe will no doubt have a greater insight
than all of us in this,but if Gibson have the will to do it,they can - hopefully,
Ivan

[Big Joe]

Ivan...It is a completely different setup with the OAI division including senior management who not only don't play bluegrass or its instruments, but don't know or understand them. To them it is just another product like a custom Les Paul. Their approach to building those instruments is no different from any other factory produced instrument. They will find the most cost effective manner to build even if it means sacrificing the end product. In addition, the OAI division was set up by a mandolin expert. Charlie knew the instrument and how to build them from every aspect. He knew exactly what he wanted to do and what would work and what would not. He also knew what aspects were important for the final product and would not compromise on that.

Since all that tooling and plans are gone and there is not a group of people who not only understand the product, but play the product and understand those elements of the Loar, it will be very difficult to produce a similar product. That is not to say they won't build a good product, only that it will be different in every manner from what it originally was. There is no one there from the original team to carry forth the work. Dave is a very capable luthier and player by all means, but he is only one man and does not have the management or team that can provide the same end product as before.

How different will new product be? No one knows at this point because there are no examples to follow. I would expect it will be in the little things that are much more difficult to see. Things like how all the details are done. Graduations may not be the same and may be more machine done than before, neck joints will probably still be a dovetail, but will it be the same? Will the finishes be the same? Will the wood selections be the same? Will the inlay work be the same? The binding?

It is not that it will be a worse product or an undesirable product. Only time will tell for that end result. It is merely that the era started by Charlie Derrington began to erode when the OAI division was broken up and the team was transferred out of OAI or left the company. Not only have the personnel changed, but now the factory and tooling and plans have as well. This will by natural evolution lead to a somewhat different end product. Even during our days at OAI there was an evolution in the product. We felt it was for the better as we learned and improved and gained experience, but once you remove the elements that made the product what it was, it cannot be the same. Evolution in product is a normal process and has been seen in the history of Gibson.

It began with Orville and his designs and construction methods were pretty revolutionary at that time. His influence on the company was actually pretty short lived, but his influence continues to this day. There were several changes over time as different people were in charge and the vision they were able to bring to life altered the instrument. Most feel the culmination of this evolution was with the Loyd Loar era. After Loar left the company at the end of 24 there was a near immediate evolution away from what he produced. This continued until the mandolin became an afterthought of the company as electric instruments began to flood the market.

In the 70's there was an attempt to redo the mandolin and bring it back to some prominence. From that time until the near past it continued on an evolutionary road that gave improvements in many areas until the product became as close as possible to the Loar era, or possibly better. When that visionary leader (Charlie) was gone, the gradual evolution away from what he did began. Not fast, and there was a good part of the team to carry on with what had been done. However, do to changes in the division, production demands, personnel, economy, dealers, etc. the product has changed.

I am convinced there will continue to be a bluegrass product at some level and some product will be produced in the future. It will certainly be the result of a major evolutionary change due to circumstances of the flood and moving the division from where it was. It will now be made in the Gibson Custom Division whose major role is to produce electric guitars. Those instruments will always be the forefront of that division by economic necessity. Bluegrass production is too small and profits too low to make it a major emphasis. As long as the production of bluegrass instruments does not interfere with the main function of that division they will be produced, but it will never be the passion until they find a leader who is able to capture the imaginations of senior management within the company and make them excited about the product.

Those leaders come along very seldom. When it comes to mandolins there have only been 3 men in history...with the exception of Orville himself, that have been able to do that. The first was Loar himself whose career in mandolins was fairly short lived because of his vision and passion. The next was Steve Carlson. His focus was on modern methods and producing a good, playable instrument at a reasonable price. The next evolution was Charlie. However, his career in the mandolin leadership follows the path of Loar very closely in so many ways. His leadership role was substantial, but way too short lived. He was removed from that role when the product was finally becoming its best and as is often the way of corporate life, the product was left to suffer. In the years since there have been a couple guys who have an equal passion, but not the ability to translate that passion in the same manner or with the same leadership skills to bring the product to the forefront of senior management. They also do not have the same relationship with the CEO to help enable the product to stay in the mind of the owners. So, as is historically seen, there is an evolution in process. All too often the evolution takes a long downhill stride before moving back to where it should be, but that chapter has not yet been written. I am not greatly optimistic about what the future brings for that division, but I also know it is important to wait and see and inspect the new product with an open mind and see what the end may be. I could be greatly surprised in a positive way and that is my hope.

[swain]

Joe, what are the odds between them re-tooling in the USA vs moving off-shore? Sure would hate to see the latter,,,,we are losing the manufacturing process and craftsment in too many other areas already.

Bob Swain

[f5loar]

I look for a move back to Bozeman, MT for mandolins and maybe even banjos. They still make acoustic guitars out there but then I'm not on the management team at Gibson.
One thing for sure with ebay, banjohangout.org, mandolincafe.com and the handful of Gibson dealers still sitting on old inventory there is no shortage of used or new Gibson mandolins and banjos.

[MikeEdgerton]

I mentioned the move back to Bozeman early after the flood but Joe said they didn't have the capcity. It still makes sense in my book. You have the basics for building and finishing there no matter what.

[Big Joe]

I am about as certain as anyone can that they will not move the Gibson production overseas. They have kept the Gibson label for USA made instruments, and so far that has been the direction they have indicated they want to persue. I would be very shocked if they did the Gibson name elsewhere.

I doubt they will move the mandolins or banjos to Montana for several reasons. First, the plant there does not have the space to integrate those products. They already are well beyond capacity and unless they were to build a much larger facility or obtain another space that would not be possible. The cost to move production from Nashville to Montana is not a little matter either. In addition, there is a larger workforce in the Nashville area and many have experience working with the woods and machines. In addition to that, there are far more manolin players here and this is the heart of bluegrass music. That does not meant there are not great players in Montana, but far less in number. This is also closer to the corporate office where it is easier for senior management to keep an eye on the production. Overall from a manufacturing or management standpoint the move would not make a lot of sense. Now I'm scared. Since it would make so much sense to keep it in Nashville, who knows where it will move !

[MikeEdgerton]

Heavens knows there aren't any people in Montana that know how to build mandolins.... wait.... that might not be true.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I also think that from a political standpoint, it would not be a popular move for Gibson to move their production out of town after such a major disaster in Nashville. On the contrary, it may be a win win for Gibson to rebuild the facility, which may get some federal subsidy for the effort, and reemploy all of the craftsmen who are out of work at the moment.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think the OAI production staff was all that large at Nashville. Their guitar facility and offices had all the jobs. As most people need money to eat and provide for their families I'm also guessing many of those have already relocated or are searching for other employment.

[woodwizard]

I don't know how many employees they had at OAI but on my last visit several years ago it did not look like a huge number of people worked there. I did get the impression that of the workers there it looked like there were experts for mandolins and experts for banjos's etc. I didn't get the feeling like everyone one did everything. I sure hope Gibson can pull through all this. It seems to me that even back in Charlie's era they were always at odds with the big corp. boys. I feel Joe is right that it is going to take some good leadership to pull through all this. I wish them all the luck in the world.

[delsbrother]

Heavens knows there aren't any people in Montana that know how to build mandolins.... wait.... that might not be true.

LOL, I knew someone would post something like that. I guess stranger things have happened, though.

[pager]

One of my dads favorite sayings was "They sure don't make them like they used to." Regarding Gibson bluegrass instruments, I have a very sad feeling we may be saying this in the near future.

jillian

[Gary McMoran]

Does Gibson still own the plant in Conway, Ark? I worked there when it was Baldwin piano, but I think Gibson was making guitars there at one point. I wasn't working there then, so I'm a little fuzzy on the details. Big plant, lots of folks that know how to work wood and use hide glue :-). Relatively cheap labor. I'm just sayin.

[Fretbear]

It's been a long and winding road for the Gibson mandolin, and it's a pretty safe bet that the Derrington era is not only gone, but that it ain't coming back. Charlie was a fanatic and maverick, just the kind that the suits don't want to have to afford. The recent Gnashville flood will likely raise the collectibility of the mandolins from his era and most especially of the MM and DMM mandolins.

[Fretbear]

Doubled post

[Big Joe]

They built pianos, Slingerland drums, and the Tobias basses at the Conway plant for a while. Not many of any of those were produced, but they tried. There are very talented people in Conway as well as in Montana, but the issue is not that there are people who are capable, but a work force large enough to draw from that is already trained and ready. In addition, there would have to be an entirely new management team for that division and moving all that to a new location. That costs a lot of money at a time when every penny is vital to continued success. If building bluegrass instruments is not a very high priority to begin with, how much money do you think they really want to throw as that division? Certainly not more than it would take to get the product to market. They already have the facilities to handle the capacity, and a trained work force on hand and management already in place. That is a LOT less expensive of an investment than moving the division and having to start from scratch to train people for the job.

While they may not have a management team that is driven by bluegrass instruments, they do have very good manufacturing managers in place to oversee production the way they want it done. The work force is already well trained to do the particular job they do and even though they don't play or understand bluegrass instruments or construction, they will do the job assigned the same as they would on a Les Paul electric. The end result will likely be a very nice looking instrument and will probably play reasonably well. The only thing is it won't be what it used to be and that is the fact no matter where they build it. It is a different day and the instruments built only a few years ago may never be equaled again. Unless they find someone with both the passion and knowledge to lead the division back to the early 20's, it may be good but not the same. The two great bluegrass luthiers for Gibson history are gone. Both Loar and Derrington mandolins are incredible and in time should be regarded as equals. Great visionaries. One to the future, the other to the past. Both gave all they could to bring the mandolin to its prominence in the industry, and both were removed from office way too soon for the benefit of the mandolin lovers. However, that is life and that is what makes the instruments they made so special. The amazing thing is that there are less than half the number of Derrington signed mandolins as there are Loar signed instruments.

It really matters not to me what they do with the bluegrass division. Needless to say, I do love the Gibson nameplate and have always been passionate about the instruments. I really hope they do well and are here to build great instruments for my grandkids and great grandkids. They have been through a real flood of problems in the last couple years, and water is only part of them, but they have survived for about 106 years so far, and are not likely to go away any time soon. I am certain they will change to keep up with the manufacturing processes and economic issues of a modern world, and that will mean the instruments from all divisions may be a bit different from the past, but survival is often far more important than just history. Sad though.

[Gary McMoran]

Just a bit of wishful thinking on my part, I guess. It would be kinda cool to have Gibson making mandolins there.

[carleshicks]

I think they should move back to Kalamazoo.

[Willie Poole]

With a lot of independent builders here and many, many mandolins coming in from import companys it wouldn`t surprise me to see Gibson drop mandolin procuction or at least put it out on a contract to some of the better independent builders...Thats just my thought on it...They make a lot more money building guitars....I hope it doesn`t happen but only time will tell....Willie

[Ed Goist]

This thread makes me quite sad...It shows just how tenuous the traditional American manufacturing model has become...sigh...

More than ever, I believe it's now really important to support domestic builders; whether they be small, large, independent or corporate.

[Mandolin Mick]

My wife & I talked about this over dinner last night (well, I talked about it to her ). I think this is a tragedy.