Hull/Weber, Jarosz/Collings, Lovell/Duff - mando tone

[grassrootphilosopher]

Trying to play and listen to mandolins built by as many different luthiers as possible I was inspired by some videos on the "let´s start a video collection" thread to seek out the mandolin tone of the different mandolins played by three of the young mando ladies, Sierra Hull, Sarah Jarosz and Rebecca Lovell.

I found it quite interesting to distinguish the different elements, playing style, atack, mandolin type (brand), amplification too etc. that make up for the type of tone each musician has.

Some examples that I saw on youtube are the following. I made sure to find examples where I was pretty sure that I could really make out that the mandolin played on the video is the brand that I am posting about here.

Given the fact that there are still uncertainities because of amplification, recording device, bit-rate etc. I found it quite interesting to hear the different sounds.

So what´s your opinion?

Rebecca Lovell on a Duff mandolin (wether tone-bar or x-bracing I do not know):



Here we have Sierra Hull un a Weber mandolin in a jam ("Brilliancy" with a very nice solo by Ned Luberecki and Sierra Hull coming in at the end):



There´s the Sierra Hull Acutab video advertisement on youtube with Sierra Hull on the Weber mandolin:



And this is the best (because it´s just her and the mando) video of Sarah Jarosz and her Collings mandolin that I could find on youtube:



Now, what´s your opinion. And I think that we can leave out the part that they are all sexy, talented, you would like to take them out to dinner and that sort of stuff.

What´s your opinion about the mando tone that they pull with their individual instruments. What do you like about the tone, what instrument tone do you like best, second best etc. and why is that so.

Something that´s not going to happen is to be present when they are all in one place swapping instruments in a jam, but it´s a nice thought.

[Ed Goist]

Wow! Olaf, thanks for taking all of the time I'm sure was required to set-up this thread. Very cool! Here are my novice observations:

Lovell on Duff - Very tubby, rich and full sounding. Overall impression is that of a full, warm tone. Had I been listening blind-folded I would have guessed this was a vintage Gibson oval-hole mandolin! Has to be X bracing, no? Also, I really like her playing style, great groove-oriented approach with excellent technique which reminds me of Mike Marshall.

Hull on Weber - Clean, clear, brilliant. Very pronounced drive, chime, and chop. Overall impression is that of a driving, powerful tone with profound projection and rapid decay. Also, what great playing! (And I love her for hating the four finger Gmaj!). [In fairness to the other 2 mandolins heard in the comparison, the environment and production of the Acutab video really maximizes the sound quality of the Weber].

Jarosz on Collings - Great presence of tone across all courses. Overall impression is one of excellent BALANCE between components. Projection, throatiness, tonal brilliance, and ring or chime seem to all be present in equal portions. Also, her playing accentuates this balance, making the video a fine example of the use of a mandolin as a solo instrument accompanying voice. Very impressive.

All of the examples feature outstanding tone, but if I had to choose one I'd most like to emulate, I'd go with Rebecca Lovell on the Duff (probably because I'm an 'oval-hole tone' guy at heart, and I love the 'tubbiness' in this example). Plus, my selection may also be greatly informed by the music being played in the selections, as I just love this groove-driven performance by the Lovell Sisters.

Olaf, thanks again. Very interesting thread! I'll be interested to hear what others (who are much more experienced listening to mandolins) think.

[Brent Hutto]

I can't really hear much in the Jarosz on Collings clip because the recording is so thin. That said, I don't hear anything to really recommend the tone of the Collings. Maybe on some other sort of song it would shine but here it just seems kind of marginal as a solo instrument in a medium-slow tune. What sustain there is seems entirely in the top octave and the bass comes across a too sparse. By the way I love that song. I'm just not "hearing it" with regard to tone.

I'd say the converse on the Lovell on Duff clip. The mandolin seems to have a tone I really dig but in that setting it seems to border on almost getting lost in the mix. I'd love to hear Ms. Jarosz use that Duff to do her Foreign Lander!

And Ed is right, the Accutab video is sort of cheating. You can hear every nuance of the Weber even as she's just noodling around.

[MCFlyboy]

There are so many variables here between the instrument/player and what we are hearing on the video that this discussion becomes limited to pretty much whether we just like or dislike the performance. The subject is interesting, of course, but without even listening I would bet that the sound of each player is governed more by the individual playing than the instrument.
The reason I say this is because of my experience listening to Tony Rice's instructional tapes when they first came out in the 70's. Of course his famous D-28 was used for most of it, but there was one section of the tape series where he used an Ovation that he had been experimenting with. I actually DID notice a little difference in tone on the tape, but it wasn't until he actually admitted to playing the Ovation in the session that I was willing to accept my own perception. Point is, Mr. Rice's technique and playing style overwhelmed whatever personality the instrument had, and I suggest that's the case here. In his biography, there are numerous references by other musicians to his individual technique and sound, and how difficult it is to tell on any of his recordings whether he's playing "the Bone" or some other instrument he just happened to have at the time.
Now if you could get all of these folks to take each of those instruments and pass it around, you'd get some real "edification."

[Capt. E]

It's hard to choose the best here, but I'm a great fan of Sarah Jarosz and agree about the balance you hear from her Collings. Coming from Wimberley Texas, a Collings was probably an easy choice for Sarah since the Collings factory is all of 30 miles away, though I'm waiting for her to acquire one of Tom Ellis' superb instruments (only about 15 miles further down the road).

[TonyP]

It's interesting to me that somehow Sierra's/Accutab sound is somehow disqualified as somehow being "enhanced" when the rest are through, to my mind, somewhat questionable circumstances. It would seem the Accutab was done probably with a LDC that is hot enough to catch everything, making it, to my ear, the most representative of what she and the mando would really sound like if you were sitting in front of her. Listen to the voices, and then her mando. It seems pretty seamless to me. Where the Brilliancy jam was off axis, far away, and seemed to be lo buck either vid cam or even iphone. It sounded like her playing, but not her usual tone to me.

RL's sound was a mix of a contact mic, and REALLY close mic. That's what gives the "tubby" sound, probably not the mando. It's called proximity effect.

SJ's sound was not at all indicative of what I've heard from her in the past. It looked like and sounded like a couple of 58's she was going through, and a 58's with it's vocal presence would NOT be a good mic for mando IMHO. I've seen a great live vid of her and Mike Marshall and her tone for me was to die for.

I'd not heard RL before, so I can't judge other that to say, wow, another fantastic young mando player.

Bottom line I would bet, sitting in the same room with a good LDC a good couple of feet away from them, I'd bet you couldn't tell as much a difference as was presented by these vids. This more reminds me of how you would duplicate the equipment to get that particular sound, than what the mando's actually sounded like.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Tony. I think the sound that does come through the YouTube vids is a point of comparison for those of us who struggle with finding words for tone. The "tubbiness" mentioned in the Lovell clip is quite obvious if one were wondering what that terms means (like myself) even though as Tony says it probably is an artifact of the recording. So certain aspects are illustrated by the clips, even though I don't think those general illustrations inform any discussion of the instruments per se.

By saying the Accutab video was "cheating" what I meant was that to me of course Hull's Weber sounded awesome. You can hear all sorts of nuances of her playing that would be totally inaudible in any of the other clips. So in terms of preferences, based on those clips I'd say "I liked Sierra Hull's sound the best". But that's akin to saying that I like beef less than veal because the hamburger I had for lunch at McDonalds couldn't hold a candle to the piece of veal I had at a fancy French restaurant last night.

[foldedpath]

In three of the four clips, you're hearing the result of a mix engineer's decisions about mic choice and placement (plus the pickup on Rebecca Lovell's Duff), you're hearing the EQ used on the board and the filtering of the PA speakers, and the mix and mastering EQ decisions for the Accutab promo clip. The fourth clip is a raw videocam or phone recording.

I understand the desire to compare instruments separated from context, but I don't know how anything meaningful can be learned from these clips, aside from a demonstration that all three instruments are certainly good enough to use for stage performance, an instructional DVD, or a high-level Bluegrass jam. Put them all in the same room with the same mic, and you might learn more.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...but I don't know how anything meaningful can be learned from these clips, aside from a demonstration that all three instruments are certainly good enough to use for stage performance, an instructional DVD, or a high-level Bluegrass jam. Put them all in the same room with the same mic, and you might learn more.

One thing I learned about myself is that the content and context of a mandolin performance will influence my perception of the tone being produced by the player and the instrument....And I'm okay with this...actually even a little proud of it.

[Brent Hutto]

Two lessons I've learned from several years buying and playing guitars...

1) I can't tell a thing about how a guitar will sound to me when I play based on recordings of other people playing one.

2) Any guitar that sounds good to me the first time I play it myself will sound really, really good to me after I practice every single day for a year on it!

[CES]

Agree with the above criticisms and complements. All are spectacular pickers at various levels of splendor, but it's hard to discern true "tone" with the varying situations and electronics involved. BGP, I think you did a great job of finding vids that did showcase the instruments/players you were after, but it's hard to know what these would sound like unplugged in a good sound room.

I feel the same way about trying to compare mandolins online via soundclips. The clips are nice, and if you compare on the same site (ie, Mandolin Store or Folk of the WOod) where they use a consistent setup/electronics you can certainly hear differences in tone, but it's hard to know what they truly sound like, esp when you factor in crummy laptop speakers...

Definitely fun to watch these pickers play!!

[Mandoe]

I've had the good fortune of actually being very close, ~three feet away, from RL and SH as they've played these mandos. RL's Duff is tone bar braced. It is very open and sounds more traditional to my ear. I must say that I have never played a "bad" Duff. They are sold, balanced, instruments. SH's Weber, to me, is very powerful with thicker notes more like some Gils I have been around. Not as much tone as the Duff IMHO. Never heard SJ live but I have often lusted for the tone of a varnished Collings.

[Dave Gumbart]

Here's a good one for your listening pleasure. Not swapping mandos, but having Sarah and Sierra swapping licks on a Monroe tune is a-ok in my book. Apologies for what appears to be a cut before the tune ends. Still, almost 3 minutes of goodness.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Well, well, you all hit the mark with your points that proximity effect, amplification (contact mic, dynamic mics), sound mix, camera mic, camera software, recording environment and a bunch of other factors make it next to impossible to determine a veritable statement about the different sound qualities of said instruments as well as the tone the individual musician pulls from the instrument.

Basically it is impossible to determine any sound of any instrument without having checked it out in person. This then means both to play it and to hear it played in an environment that is favorable for the instrument (not in the bathroom or a storage facility, no side noise and so forth).

Since I, like many on this site, have an interest to listen to and play as many different instruments as possible. And wether this is out of curiosity or because of the interest in further acquisitions, we try achieve this goal by going places where we find an assembly of many instruments, this being festivals music fairs or shops, shows or even the internet. And because the access to many interesting builts is limited (I know of Nuggets, Dudenbostels, Appitius, Gibsons, Duffs, Gilchrists, Vandens, Flatbushs in Europe and have checked most builders out but would like to check Dudes, Hesters, Halseys, Kimbles, Stanleys, Altmans, Ellis, Red Diamonds etc.) chances are slim that this happens in the near future.

My thoughts about the mentioned instruments and their guardians were initially evoced by this video (Sarah Jarosz):



I found it to be a quite nice video that shows a very good musician with a quirky taste in a blend of fine old mandolin picking and innovative ideas as well as fine syncopations on a mandolin that most folks on the cafe would like to own. (Great gutsy singing she does too; very nice and fully her own sound)

I thought about the tone of the instrument in the clip and immediately a different good musician came to mind that I thought had a different mando tone as well as a different stylistic approach to the instrument. Sierra Hull it was, a far more modernistic sound that shows the influence of musicians like Adam Steffey. (Her singing style shows some Krausian touches, I think). Apart from the ACUTAB video this video shows her style and mando sound the best.



I thought about Sierra Hull´s mandolin that is not a Collings as SJ´s but a Weber and thought about the difference of sound that I seemed to have detected.

I then thought about Rebecca Lovell as the third of the "fresh" female mando faces. I knew that she had a Collings but had Paul Duff make her a -custom (?)- F-5. I thought about finding a good clip on youtube and finally wound up with these two.





While the first video exemplifies the sound on the high strings and mostly in higher registers the second video shows the rythm quality of the instrument. Both videos are interesting concerning the musical approach of Rebecca Lovell that is again totally different from SH and SJ. I detect quite an originality that goes beyond the initial quoting of the melody while all the while the mandolin is played very professionally. (I also like Rebecca Lovell´s voice very much. It also has a gutsy power and a very nice timbre)

While I have not found a studio quality performance of Sara Jarosz on mandolin I had my thoughts about the sound qualities of the instruments all the same, mostly because I had played or listened to Collings and Duffs. I think that the Duff is the most traditional sounding mandolin of the three whereas I found the Collings and the Weber to be more modern sounding. Modern I think is the "glassiness" or "stringiness" that I think I detect in those instruments.

Whatever, I thought I would share my thoughts and wellcome further opinions.

Ed, while I would not call the tone tubby and would indeed think that perception to be a result of the proximity effect, I would call the tone very rounded with many sparkeling overtones, yet warm and full. I find the other two to be more sterile.

[Ed Goist]

Olaf: Thanks for the great post and for the videos...All excellent! Obviously the tubbiness in the first Rebecca Lovell video was due to the sonic effect mentioned, as I don't hear it at all in these videos, even with the profound focus on rhythm in the second video. Speaking of that video...The Lovell Sisters 'In My Time of Dyin' is the BUSINESS! What a great video! I could watch that all day. What a great band...Finally, You know, it's really unfair that people that physically attractive can also be that talented!

[John Kinn]

Great videos there, and very interesting questions raised. I think I made a comment this winter on the Cafe that Sierra Hull's Weber in the Acutab clip sounds just awesome. Throathy and very well balanced, with a full sound all the way up the neck. Hats off, both to the mandolin and to Sierra's playing. Made me wonder if I shold trade in my A9 for a Weber. But it won't be THAT Weber, so I don't know..Keep on posting them,Olaf!

[Laird]

That's a great song by Larkin Poe. Anyone know why two of the three Lovell sisters felt the need to find a different outlet for theri talents?

[Ed Goist]

That's a great song by Larkin Poe. Anyone know why two of the three Lovell sisters felt the need to find a different outlet for theri talents?

Hi Laird, according to what I read today on a few sites (including the Larkin Poe website), The oldest sister, Jessica (the fiddle player) got married, entered college, and chose to withdraw from the band. The other two sisters (Megan and Rebecca) decided to continue making music under a new band name (Larkin Poe - a family ancestor), so that the name 'Lovell Sisters' would only be used for billing when all three are present. Apparently they have a few concert dates scheduled all together over the next year (around the oldest sister's downtime) and they will be billed as the Lovell Sisters for those.

I find this incredibly classy...It's only the Lovell Sisters when all three are present...Man, I like these young women!

[F-2 Dave]

Does anyone know the name of the tune played in the video by Miss Hull and Mr. Hess?

[Ivan Kelsall]

The Weber that Sierra Hull plays(ed),does sound incredibly good. I'd love to A-B my 3 year old Fern against that one. I wonder how long she'd been playing it to get it to the point where it sounded so good so soon ?. Having said that,she & Sarah do draw beautiful tones from their instruments & that's down to their wonderful talent at doing it,
Ivan

[mandolirius]

Does anyone know the name of the tune played in the video by Miss Hull and Mr. Hess?

Big Sciota.

[Mandoviol]

Does Sierra also play a Gibson? I could have sworn she played one when I saw her about a month ago (either that or I can't read "Weber" from 20 rows back).

[Steve Ostrander]

Wow, this is the first time I've heard the Lovell Sisters, and they knock me out. Frankly, I'd rather jam with them than take them out to dinner.

[jartop]

Sierra plays The Hester mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?albumid=29

[Mandoviol]

Sierra plays The Hester mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?albumid=29

That might have been what I saw her playing, then. Explains why I thought it said "Gibson."