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Thread: Pettine Method copyright?

  1. #1

    Default Pettine Method copyright?

    Is the Pettine Method under any form of copyright anymore? I don't currently own a copy, and I know it's a bit hard to come by, BUT I've been thinking about borrowing it from another university's library, scanning it and uploading it to the absolutely fantastic IMSLP.ORG for all mandolin players to benefit from. Of course, this is pending there's no current copyright on the elusive book.

  2. #2
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    I bought most of the volumes I own from Pettine's son or grandson some years ago. I know he had a connection to the Providence Mandolin Orchestra. I would check with them first before uploading. They might even have some copies around for you to own.

    There are some members of the PMO who are active here at the Cafe, so maybe they can comment.
    Jim

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    Or for that matter, what about the methods of Ranieri and Calace? Or their other works? I'm sure having access to all of these on imslp would be a great boon to mandolin players everywhere.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    I don't know about Ranieri, but the Calace family is still in business, and (presumably) has some legal claim(s) to Raffaele Sr.'s works. After all, they are for sale, commercially, world-wide. I wouldn't rush into that in particular; Ranieri may be another story.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    The Ranieri Method was published by Cranz (Belgium?) in multiple volumes in the 1920s and I believe is still available in a more condensed 2 volume form. Not too easy to find here in the US but prob easier in Europe.

    Nice of you to offer to do all that work for the good of mandolin humanity but i would be careful.

    I have also heard that there might be a reprinting of Munier and Branzoli methods as well.
    Jim

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    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    In general, musical works remain in copyright for 70 years after the death of the composer. So unless for whatever reason they were re-copyrighted, anything written by a composer who died before 1940 should be in the public domain. (But I would ask a copyright lawyer, rather than take my word for it , and I know there have been some changes in US Copyright in recent years )

    cheers

    graham

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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    Trying to determine exactly when a work passes into the public domain can be a nightmare if the original copyright was between 1923 and 1978. But in the U.S., anything published before 1923 is now in public domain. This is not true for all countries, but is the case in the U.S. Something can still be under copyright in Europe but be in public domain in the Unites States. That's why some works on IMSLP can be legally downloaded in some countries but not in others.

    For a handy chart that explains when works go into public domain, check out this page put up by the University of North Carolina:
    http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

    Or if you want a more detailed account from the U.S. Copyright office, consult their Circular 22 (especially page 7):
    http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ22.pdf

    Hope this helps.
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    Registered User Acquavella's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    The Ranieri series is still published by Cranz. The book I have has a 1959 copyright date. You definitely can't scan this method.

    The Calace methods are available through trekel.de so I wouldn't try anything with that neither.

    The Pettine might very well be written before 1923 and therefore might be public domain. However, eventhough the book I have doesn't have a date, it does state on the cover "Copyright for all Countries". So you might want to be carefull before you start scanning.

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acquavella View Post
    The Calace methods are available through trekel.de so I wouldn't try anything with that neither.
    Strictly speaking that's neither here nor there - as long as you don't scan from a modern copy as any changes made to the text will have a newer copyright. If you work from an old enough copy you should be OK though. It's a bit like Shakespear is still in print, but definitely not in copyright...

    John.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    related thread at fiddlehangout, with lots of links - seems we have sonny bono to thank for the extended copyright legislation:

    http://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/15521

    ... he got us, babe.

  11. #11
    Registered User Acquavella's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    Strictly speaking that's neither here nor there - as long as you don't scan from a modern copy as any changes made to the text will have a newer copyright. If you work from an old enough copy you should be OK though.
    Thats not entirely true. Look at some of the Russian composers. G.Schirmer, Inc bought all the rights to Kabalevsky, Shostakovich...etc. This purchase forced Kalmus, Luck's Library and others to stop selling their editions of major works. They can sell "arrangements" of a work, say for wind ensemble or children's string orchestra but not the full orchestral music. If you already own a Kalmus edition, you can perform it. But if you need to purchase now it will have to be with G. Schirmer, who only make the work available through "rental", not purchase.

    I'm pretty sure that isn't the case with the Calace methods, which I believe are still under copyright. They were written after 1923 depending on the volume.

    Personally I wouldn't take any risks. If people want their money bad enough they will come after you. I personally wouldn't talk about scanning music on a public message board, especially when one of the members works for the US Copyright Office. Food for thought.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    I wanted to resurrect this thread to address specifically all the Calace printed works and their copyright status in the USA.
    Italy and the US are both Berne convention signers. Under Article 18, there is reciprocal protection, provided that the work remains under copyright under the country of origin. In the case of Italy, the Calace works were protected for 70 years after the composers death (1934), but are now public domain in Italy and therefore public domain in the USA. Any German printings have no impact on this.

    In some cases, the digitization and production of PDFs may create new copyright works. In Italy, fully-automated and semi-automated digitization of 2d works do not create new rights.
    http://outofcopyright.eu/rights-after-digitisation/
    so the online Calace PDFs are likewise in PD in the USA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Acquavella View Post
    The Ranieri series is still published by Cranz. The book I have has a 1959 copyright date. You definitely can't scan this method.

    The Calace methods are available through trekel.de so I wouldn't try anything with that neither.

    The Pettine might very well be written before 1923 and therefore might be public domain. However, eventhough the book I have doesn't have a date, it does state on the cover "Copyright for all Countries". So you might want to be carefull before you start scanning.

  13. #13
    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    How is it that no one has mentioned the fact that all of Calace's works are already available online via http://www.federmandolino.it/wp/spartiti-music-scores/?

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    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    Yes, and also there is a new edition, with full English translation, of the Calace method -- by Catarina Lichtenberg and Mike Marshall. Here is the Mandolin Cafe article:
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pu...s_001316.shtml

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    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bartl View Post
    How is it that no one has mentioned the fact that all of Calace's works are already available online via http://www.federmandolino.it/wp/spartiti-music-scores/?
    I think that's because this is a thread from 2010 which has just been resurrected today -- I believe the Federmandolino Calace scores were only made available online in 2013.

    Martin

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    Registered User Classicalcomp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    I think it would be a fun exercise to have some experts weigh in on the situation because we are dealing with definitely different levels of copyright law here. I can only speak to a few of the things that I studied in college and outside of college, but here are some US truths (mind you international is entirely different).

    All works created 1923 and earlier are in the public domain and have no copyright protections. January 1st, barring no new extensions, 1924 works will enter.

    In order for a public domain work to have copyright protections, you will have to make changes to the original and then only your changes are protected under copyright. For instance, if I make an arrangement of a public domain piece, lets say for mandolin ensemble, the arrangement can achieve copyright protections because it is a new work. Flip side, if I create a mandolin book and include facsimile copies of public domain works, the non-copied parts of the book would be copyright protectable but the facsimiles would not because there was no transformation of the work. The grey area comes when doing your own typesetting of works. I think most copyright offices would say if you typeset a public domain work, it would create a new work and would be protectable.

    Either way, there is also fair use which does give you certain rights to use copyrighted works, so that goes along with it.

    If you want the honest truth about what happens with copyright, I can dilute it down to very simple economics. If someone is trying to profit off of a work, or if you’re impeding on someone trying to profit off of a work, you’re probably going to get into trouble using that work. Legally, good luck with most of this music figuring out who owns the copyright, but even then, if you use it improperly and make a bunch of money, they will let you know
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  18. #17

    Default Re: Pettine Method copyright?

    this is a good read:
    Copyright for New Editions of Public Domain Music in the USA
    http://www.rbs2.com/cmusic2.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by Classicalcomp View Post
    I think it would be a fun exercise to have some experts weigh in on the situation because we are dealing with definitely different levels of copyright law here. I can only speak to a few of the things that I studied in college and outside of college, but here are some US truths (mind you international is entirely different).

    All works created 1923 and earlier are in the public domain and have no copyright protections. January 1st, barring no new extensions, 1924 works will enter.

    In order for a public domain work to have copyright protections, you will have to make changes to the original and then only your changes are protected under copyright. For instance, if I make an arrangement of a public domain piece, lets say for mandolin ensemble, the arrangement can achieve copyright protections because it is a new work. Flip side, if I create a mandolin book and include facsimile copies of public domain works, the non-copied parts of the book would be copyright protectable but the facsimiles would not because there was no transformation of the work. The grey area comes when doing your own typesetting of works. I think most copyright offices would say if you typeset a public domain work, it would create a new work and would be protectable.

    Either way, there is also fair use which does give you certain rights to use copyrighted works, so that goes along with it.

    If you want the honest truth about what happens with copyright, I can dilute it down to very simple economics. If someone is trying to profit off of a work, or if you’re impeding on someone trying to profit off of a work, you’re probably going to get into trouble using that work. Legally, good luck with most of this music figuring out who owns the copyright, but even then, if you use it improperly and make a bunch of money, they will let you know

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