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Thread: 1970's F5'S

  1. #26

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    The 30's quilt was silver maple but wasn't what I've seen on the 70's Gibsons.
    There's a world of difference between a 60's F5 or 12 and a 70's. That's the part that makes it so mysterious. How and why would they make such dramatic changes only to end up with a worse instrument at a time when tightening the belt was foremost.
    I feel like I repeat myself too much but it's over years of different threads. But the lightbulb went off for me when I read that in 1970 Gibson (Norlin) made a deal with ARIA! to produce Epiphone so they could close that part of the Kalamazoo line down. So while the word forgery is being used, Gibson is in fact in kahoots with Aria who makes an F-5 that is almost identical to the Gibsons.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    It's not so mysterious if you understand that Norlin was operating from the point of view that cutting costs, no matter what, increases immediate profits. They failed to take into account that a decline in quality affects long term sales prospects, but apparently they weren't very concerned about that. The bosses made good salaries for 16 years until the company was sold again.

    But Gibson was already moving in that direction during the later days of CMI's ownership [Norlin's predecessor]. Starting in the mid 50's, we see a gradual series of design changes that lead to the overbuilt acoustic guitars of the '60's with oversized plywood bridge plates and adjustable bridges. These '60's guitars were much poorer instruments than those that Gibson was building in the first half of the 1950's. The purpose of many of the design changes were to reduce the frequency of warranty repairs. Since many of the changes were internal, the instruments did not change much in appearance, only in sound quality.

    And sound quality is the bottom line.

    Here's a question for those who have played several Gibson mandolins made after 1930: How do the instruments of the '50's and '60's compare with those made in the '30's?

  3. #28

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    How can a complete overhaul of how a mandolin is made with almost nothing resembling how it had been done at any time in history translate to cost savings? Especially doing the fingerboard inlays when that was only done to a few of the earliest mandolins in the company's history? If it was being done in Kal then it would have had to be a very labor intensive thing. But given the number of Japanese mandolins with the exact same inlay it seems implausible that Gibson was doing it.
    Bill Halsey used to chime in here. I'd love to hear his memories.

  4. #29

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    This is what they have to say about the 70's mandolins in Julius Bellson's "The Gibson Story" booklet from 1973. The fancy inlayed fingerboard was never used in 1915, much earlier. This is near the end of the book and is about the tenure of Stanley Rendell. The purchase by Norlin is never mentioned.
    In another paragraph they did mention aquiring a panograph machine that could do intricate engraving and inlays for pegheads and fingerboards.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    "The tuned spruce tops . . . "
    Whatever they were tuning them to, it didn't work very well.

    " . . . plus a varnish finish . . ."
    If that was varnish they were using, I'll eat my hat. Of course, it could have been some poly finish that was dubbed varnish, in which case I won't eat my hat . . .

    I wonder if they believed their own press. Or whether they had anybody on board in the front office who was proficient enough on an instrument to recognize the difference between a superior instrument and a poor one.

    Like the mandolins and acoustic guitars, the re-designed banjos from this period were far from being Gibson's best.

    I guess the thing that intrigues me the most about Gibson is how they have managed to stay in business at all. They survived the world wars, changes in the musical preferences of the buying public, and the Depression through cleverness and adaptability. But how they survived Norlin is beyond me. They only survived the tenure of Henry J. et al through chapter 11 bankruptcy. Whether or not they will survive the current management remains to be seen.

    Jim, you might be building more mandolins than Gibson is right now.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jul-07-2019 at 4:26pm.

  6. #31
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    I don't think those tuners were made by Gotoh. I never saw a Gotoh cog that was that crappy but I saw plenty of Klusons that were close and they did make tuners like that. Gotoh certainly didn't invent that plate shape and I'm pretty sure they would have used a Phillips screw on the cog as well. Hopefully someone has a catalog page to prove me wrong.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  7. #32

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Here's pictures of an Aria and the Gibson that's currently being discussed in the Ebay section.
    Gibson on the left.
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  8. #33
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Being an inhabitant of the city for quite a number of years prior and post “Norlin evacuation” of the company, there are a bucket load of “Gibson” instruments that were “toolbox take home pieces” which are far more detrimental to the <see other legal thread> issues than many folks want to consider. Quilted or “bubble” maple backs? I’ve seen enough to give a “Rhett Butlers thought” about. There is no “Normal” from the company post Orville’s thank you speech when they handed him a check and he went into assisted care.
    FWIW, a buddy gave me a set of Schaller’s as a birthday gift a couple of years after I bought my Alvarez, I have done nothing to them aside from a drop of oil every few years and had not one issue with tuning that was not “user related”.
    The arms of Morpheus are calling me so, I bid you all good night and a day late happy birthday to John Seif! He’s”39l just like Jack Benny!
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  9. #34
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    Here's pictures of an Aria and the Gibson that's currently being discussed in the Ebay section.
    Gibson on the left.
    See any difference between those tuners? The ones on the right are Gotoh's. The ones on the left are not.

    OK, here it is. Three quarters down the page on the Siminoff article those tuners are identified as Klusons.

    Here is an early worm over set. Same cog on all. Here's another picture of an earlier Kluson F style tuner with the normal Kluson plate shape.
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    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Jul-08-2019 at 12:11pm.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  10. #35
    Registered User Rickker's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Quote Originally Posted by f5loar View Post
    During these "dark ages" from 1970 to 1978 at Gibson in Kalamazoo, MI when they were owned by Norlin Music of Illinois it would be hard to say who was in charge. Roger Sminoff named a few of the officials during this time in his saga about the beginning of the '78 F5L. During this time starting in 1970 the entire line got an extreme makeover with the F5 receiving a really extreme makeover. If I didn't know better they were all made in Japan and shipped to Kalamazoo to only recieve the final spray finish. The change in quality was that drastic. I think that was the problem, too many in charge of nothing! Since the F5 and F12 were the only instruments that carried a signed label during this time I can say the majority of the F5s were signed by then President Stan Rendell. Tops too thick was the least of the problems. At least they didn't have many return with caved in tops. To go into the flaws and failures of the 70s's F5s would be rather intense. Bad materials used was a problem. Pickguards and binding would crumble in less then a decade. Varnish too thick another serious problem to name a few.
    As far as serial nos. they used 5 different methods of numbering the instruments of which only a few made any sense of what they did to narrow down a date. The mandolins shared the numbers with the rest of production. To figure out a date on a 70's Gibson is tough at best but at least the F5 and F12 did carry an actual date along with that signature so they are quite easy to figure out.
    The best place I've found to figure out the serial no. mess of the 70s is in Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Instruments. But beware, they used some numbers that were also used in the mid to late 60's hence the problem of amature buyers thinking they have a vintage 60's Gibson when it is only a mid 70's dark era Gibson. You see this a lot on ebay from sellers that don't have a clue.
    For what it's worth, I own a 1969 Gibson F5, serial # 814400. I purchased it in 1974 from the original owner. Shortly after purchasing it, I wrote the Gibson company and found it was indeed produced in 1969, and that there were 40 F5s produced in the Kalamazoo factory that year. Don't know if this serial number is helpful to the original poster. Anyway, at the time, I was totally unaware of quality issues, build differences and so on. I just thought it was a good instrument because Dean Webb of the Dillards played one that sounded great. I have not had the opportunity to play any "great" instruments, and have always preferred the sound and playability of my F5 to modestly priced (say, under $1500) mandolins that are owned by friends of mine, or that I have otherwise had the opportunity to play. Now, there have been issues with it. The slots in the nut were too high, making playing the first fret difficult. This was easily corrected. The Kluson tuners had tight spots that no amount of lubrication would correct. I tolerated this condition for many years until Kluson came out with replacements that look identical to the originals. Fortunately, these turn very smoothly. Over the years I have had the instrument re-fretted, truss rod adjustments and setups by a skilled luthier. I have been totally happy and satisfied with this F5 and am playing it every day to this day. That's 45 years! It wasn't until I joined the Mandolin Cafe that I learned about all the issues with Gibson and the so-called dark era. Frankly, I wish I had not found out. Anyway, that's my story. 1969 Gibson F5, serial number 814400.
    .....Rickker

  11. #36
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

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  12. #37

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Hey, Rickker, your mandolin isn't what I'm talking about here. It is however the evidence I point to in comparison to what happened just a year or two after yours was built. Yours has Kalamazoo written all over it. But a year later this thing comes out that bears no resemblance at all to what had been produced for the last 20 years. Hard to believe the same workers had a hand in it.
    All through the companies history you can see the evolution through time of all their instruments but never was anything so stark as the changes made by Norlin.
    Rick, you posted a video before of you playing your mandolin and your playing was just great and your mandolin suited it perfectly. I remember it was very chimey and fit your cross picking style perfectly. Now I assume it may not "chop" like so many grassers like but still sounds wonderful. Post that video again.

  13. #38

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gibbs View Post
    Thanks for asking Mike. I bought it at McCabes Guitar shop in Santa Monica, Ca. for $900.00 with a rectangular case and those where 1976 dollars.
    i met givens in spokane decades ago. i had just bought my long time friend a 1924 snakehead at the sound hole, in spokane. i was busking that downtown fountain area during the lunch hour when the office workers and sales clerks came out for lunch. i had a funky greek bouzouki i was playing, and a harp. he came up and told me he could make me a bouzouki, and he'd like to try it and he asked me to come up to his place somewhere in the mountains. like a fool i didn't go.

    there were a few of is mandolins for sale at the guitar gallery in spokane at the time. i almost bought one but i had just bought the gibson and it was a lot of me at the time($1500 for the givens A 6, and the gibson was $520).

    so i met the maestro and didn't realize it.

    there was also a shop that had a fantastic carved wire strung harp in the style of the brian boru harp. spokane was a hopping place in the eighties.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Circa 1975. Trademarked soon???

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  16. #40
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    I think Gumby (R) beat them to it.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  17. #41

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    I do see the difference between the Gibson and Aria but the Gibsons are still not the same as the ones you picture with the note above them. The ones on the Gibson have the "leaf" engraving-stamping around each screw hole on the plate. That's the identifier I've always associated with Gotohs. However the gears are clearly different than the Aria.

  18. #42
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    I do see the difference between the Gibson and Aria but the Gibsons are still not the same as the ones you picture with the note above them. The ones on the Gibson have the "leaf" engraving-stamping around each screw hole on the plate. That's the identifier I've always associated with Gotohs. However the gears are clearly different than the Aria.
    Look at the cog. Kluson was doing what they had to do with the engraving and they certainly didn't look as elegant as anything Gotoh ever made. That cog is the identifier, they aren't Gotoh's, they were the last gasp of Kluson trying to put lipstick on a pig.

    The sad thing is that if they removed all of the engraving off the Gotoh's they would be 100% better looking in my opinion.
    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Jul-08-2019 at 12:53pm.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  19. #43

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    The other inexplicable thing to me is that there are the Gibson Lumpers and the Epiphone Lumpers. Virtually identical but one is made in Kal and the other in Japan? Maybe no Epi ovals but f hole models. And they both have the fingerboards with the little dots above the 15th and the double dots on the 24th.

  20. #44
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    I wonder if the Epihone's were laminated and not solid? By the way, Gibson was making a lump scroll mandolin in the 30's.

    The original Gibson made lump scroll mandolin
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  21. #45

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Not making a claim that their Goats, but the engraving got me.

  22. #46

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    This era has been discussed on this forum often with no firm conclusions. SURELY, someone is still alive who worked at Gibson who remembers what is up..........? Seems to me that Japan-made mandolins being labeled and SOLD as USA made would have ruffled more than a few feathers among both workers and buyers. Those of a certain age can remember when "made in Japan" was really looked down upon among USA buyers. IF TRUE, those customers were bilked and looks like a cut and dried class action lawsuit, IMHO.

    More likely, Gibson may have purchased those goofy fingerboards from Aria and installed on Kalamazoo-built instruments, Aria being the Matsumoku owned company contracted by Gibson to build the made in Japan Epiphone line....

  23. #47
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    The people that knew have already spoken. They weren't built in Japan. There are people that are still alive.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  24. #48

    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Here's another fun page from the Gibson story.
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  25. #49
    Registered User Rickker's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1970's F5'S

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    Hey, Rickker, your mandolin isn't what I'm talking about here. It is however the evidence I point to in comparison to what happened just a year or two after yours was built. Yours has Kalamazoo written all over it. But a year later this thing comes out that bears no resemblance at all to what had been produced for the last 20 years. Hard to believe the same workers had a hand in it.
    All through the companies history you can see the evolution through time of all their instruments but never was anything so stark as the changes made by Norlin.
    Rick, you posted a video before of you playing your mandolin and your playing was just great and your mandolin suited it perfectly. I remember it was very chimey and fit your cross picking style perfectly. Now I assume it may not "chop" like so many grassers like but still sounds wonderful. Post that video again.
    Thanks Jim for your reply. I guess it's a good thing that I happened to get the one I have, which is quite a story in itself. Also thanks for the kind words about the instrument and my playing. I will try to post the video again, if I can remember how I did it the first time.
    ....Rick

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