Jack White

[catmandu2]

...will in no way inspire me to participate further in a discussion that expands itself to include Mr. White's "brand" of Old Time Music.

Does this mean that you're receding back into the ether, "professor" Talabardio?


Well, it has been fun. I'll look for ya in another incarnation.

[DrEugeneStrickland]

I would be happy to give Mr. Whites Old Time Music attempt another chance when and if he does his homework.
I don't get the impression he is headed down that road however.
Now David Grisman is the one folk musician who's music and respect for tradition has made him the premiere "gateway" figure for those who want to dig backwards and discover the deeper roots of American music,in this respect I am glad he has made important contributions to culture through his work with Jerry Garcia.

[catmandu2]

[catmandu2]

We are all ghosts on line Cat. In all the years I have been here I ave not met but a few folks in person, and those I knew (or knew of) already anyway. We are all ghosts.

I just take everyone for who they say they are on this forum, and assume there is some phase angle between the on line persona and the person in 3D "meat space".

This seems a risky policy, Jeff. Although you may not have a preference for buying your "goods" at a bricks and mortar shop, thought is a valuable commodity. It should be your own.

[Talabardio]

I see. Well, thanks anyway.

Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist. It is not my area of speciality, either, but the principles of music criticism may be applied anywhere

Taste and appropriateness would deter most people from discussing Punk music, Jack White, et al. at length in an ongoing 'old time mandolin' forum context. While one may reserve the right to not love the professor's warm hearted style, he is so relentlessly right-on here it makes me LOL.

Professor, I really enjoyed your entry into the weak discussion of breton music a while back. Thank you for injecting a sobering dose of reality into the mass of absurd conjectures! Have you read the book about the great sonneur from the 19th century, Matelin An dall, by Bernard De Paredes? it contains a manuscript of pieces played by Matelin collected by his friend, Colonel Alfred Bourgeois. Only one copy of it survived in a museum in Rennes, and now it has been brought back into mass publication within this book. My wife and I have been learning some of this material. Priceless!

I could go on at truly great length about this music, but I'm afraid that to do so here in the old time forum would be... self-indulgent.

[catmandu2]

Interesting that you guys would feel the need to create an effigy to debate for you.

But this is the stuff of good fiction--very Vonnegut-esque. Or Orwellian. The disturbing part is that, even with the acolytes' knowledge that the effigy knows nothing of the subject, he is championed and annointed as "a leader"--no matter how wayward.

This motif is one of the more popular themes in literature.

Quite off-topic, but instructive in a more significant sense.

Back on-topic, it's exemplative of how threatened some folks are with anything new, challenging, or innovative. I really didn't need six pages to demonstrate this...but it's been fun, anyway..

[Talabardio]

<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>

[Ed Goist]

We are all ghosts on line Cat...We are all ghosts...

[catmandu2]

Cool, Ed. This reminds me of the article you provided the link to (pages 7-8...anyone remember that?--there was little if any discussion emanating from it). I'm beginning to think you're right Jeff: substantia noumo nada


Of course, a better word would have been "dummy"--but I was trying to avoid provocative language, the naysayers being so volatile...

[journeybear]

I know they say, don't feed the troll, but this has gone on much too long. From the guidelines:

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution.

This unfounded assertion that DrEugeneStrickland and Talabardio are the same person is ridiculous, dismaying, and offensive. If this were the case, they/he/she would have been shut down long ago. Scott and the moderators have, I believe, the means to determine whether anyone is doing this and will not stand for it. That neither of them had been shut down should prove this is not the case. Alleging this behavior without providing proof, in a public forum, is extremely rude. If you have proof, you should report this activity to admins, off-list. This kind of shaming does a disservice to all reading this thread, and ultimately brings shame on yourself.

The personal sniping, baiting, and derision you have indulged in is also unseemly behavior for this communication medium, and furthermore, just generally unkind. It is to these posters' credit that they have not taken your bait nor stooped to your level. I doubt I would have the same patience if it were me who had become the object of such nonsensical attacks.

It is interesting that after over 300 posts, no one has provided us with any audio or video examples of Jack White playing something truly resembling old-timey music. I can't say this represents definitive proof that nothing of that sort exists, but a preponderance of lack of evidence implies that is likely the case. One version of "Wayfaring Pilgrim" does not make him an old-timey musician. Anyone can do any song in a set, but that will not make him or her a valid exponent of that genre. Nor does stretching the definition of a genre to suit one's assertion.

Now I feel like I am feeding the troll again. Well, go ahead, nitpick my post, take words out of context and spin them to suit your opinion. Keep in mind, though, that quoting a person's words against him to disprove his point or allege hypocrisy do not prove your point. Unless, of course, you ascribe to the Pee Wee Herman defense strategy: "I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I?"

Finally, I noticed this morning this thread of interest, conveniently linked right at the bottom of the page all this time: Jack-White's-new-Old-Time-tribute-cd

[catmandu2]

My, my, wasn't it you schooling me on humor on the "doofus" thread? Where is the "outraged indignation" smiley?

No proof, just a hunch. But now I'm 91% sure, as I have ruled you out more conclusively.

[Talabardio]

I know they say, don't feed the troll, but this has gone on much too long. From the guidelines:

Journeybear, aren't you really... me? He really is amusing... melting down on the other members for agreeing with the Dr. ...simply awesome!

[catmandu2]

<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>

[allenhopkins]

...You have doomed this thread, no doubt, to at least another page or two...(much to Allen's dismay!...

Not mine. Been outta here for awhile. Too much interpersonal sniper fire, not enough discussion of old-time music. Some interesting videos posted, though.

Anticipating a lockdown in the foreseeable future. In R Hunter's immortal woids, "What a long strange trip it's been."

[catmandu2]

In R Hunter's immortal woids, "What a long strange trip it's been."

Indeed.

BTW, I checked Sheila Kay Adams' website, which didn't seem to be a particularly good source for her music and writings. Can you refer me to another source that might?

[allenhopkins]

...I checked Sheila Kay Adams' website, which didn't seem to be a particularly good source for her music and writings. Can you refer me to another source that might?...

Some MP3's of music and stories on her Myspace page.

I met Sheila Kay perhaps ten years ago at Pinewoods Camp. She is one of the few remaining people who has actually accumulated a repertoire of traditional songs by interpersonal contact with older generation singers/musicians, not through working with collectors, recordings or professional performers. As a result, she has some fascinating variants and oddities, as well as a huge number of hilarious anecdotes about the people from whom she learned her music -- great-aunts, isolated ballad singers and banjo pickers, etc.

I haven't read her novels, but she surely has the ability to tell a good story. She's worked quite a bit with Bobby McMillan, I believe, who's another North Carolina traditional musician, and an expert on some of the famous "murder ballad" criminals like Thomas "Tom Dooley" Dula and Frankie Silver.

Now, just to let myself get sucked back down into the general discussion, one last time: people like Sheila Kay Adams and Bobby McMillan will live out their lives loving, preserving, performing, and spreading the traditional music they grew up hearing, and learned to play and understand themselves. Their participation in the Songcatcher movie went totally unremarked by the world in general. Songcatcher's somewhat confused and diffuse focus -- environmentalism, lesbianism, the threat to traditional mountain culture posed by efforts to record, collect, and present it to the "outside world" -- made its musical content somewhat beside the point, accurate and emotionally compelling though it was. The little scene where the coal company's representative, one of the "villains" of the script, breaks into Oh Death, was, IMHO, deeply emotionally affecting. But let a rock star, whether Jack White, John Paul Jones, Robert Plant, Elvis Costello or whoever, show an interest in the same style of music, it's "news." I'd be the last one -- well, maybe next to last -- to disrespect anyone who developed a love for this style of music, or tried to perform or popularize it, no matter how ham-handed or "unauthentic" that person's "take" on old-time music was. But neither would I attach undue significance to it, however I might measure "undue" to be.

Some earlier discussion of Mike Seeger, who was -- still is -- one of my idols; seeing him in a Cambridge coffeehouse in 1963 or so, probably determined what emphasis my next 45+ years of music would take. He was, by all accounts and by my limited interaction with him, a difficult, prickly individual sometimes, not overly tolerant of disagreements or contradictions. What led me to admire him, was his commitment to the music he loved, as a performer, collector, producer, preserver, spokesperson, and teacher. He never was a star, never famous outside of a limited circle of people who appreciated the music he found and played and kept alive when others lost interest. He knew that his musical niche was a narrow one, and that he'd never reach "mass appeal" as long as he stayed in it. He didn't seem to care. Maybe he did; maybe he regretted taking that path. But I'm deeply glad that he took it.

I'm sure that White -- and Springsteen, and Plant, and Mellencamp, and many others -- have heard and appreciated "roots" music, whatever the hell that is, and may well incorporate some if it into their future recordings and performances. Good for them. I hope that some who hear them, may be impelled to listen to the people to whom these performers have listened, and learn to appreciate Sheila Kay Adams and Mike Seeger -- or even more, Dock Boggs, Clarence Ashley, Almeda Riddle, Nimrod Workman, Hobart Smith, Etta Baker, and all the other wonderful traditional musicians whose music is still accessible.

[catmandu2]

Thanks Allen.

No argument from me.

Yes, the "Songcatcher" movie was a bit strange. But the music is great--and had those poignant moments. Some movies are like that...I suppose it's so with all things--it pays to be discerning.

My own journey started with Zepplin 35 years ago, then bluegrass...wound through Bert Jansch...and eventually back to the "old" stuff, with a whole helluva lot of stops in between -- banjo (and jazz, but that's another story) being the main catalyst. The more one educates one's self about music, the further back (and into other cultures) one tends to go, of course.

It's all music--it all has some value...but enough with that.

I've heard that about M. Seeger. I've learned quite a bit of music from that feller.

[Talabardio]

<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>

[Ted Eschliman]

Regretfully, we have a couple individuals that insist on contaminating this thread with their public bickering.