American made mandos for classical ?

[Don Raven]

Are there any suggestions for the best American made oval hole modern mando that is the most appropriate for playing classical and Italian music. I'm aware of the vintage mandos ,e.g. bowlbacks etc, but I was wondering if any modern luthiers have produced a mando for classical and Italian.

[Chris Biorkman]

Check out Brian Dean from Canada. He makes some pretty nice bowlbacks.

[Acquavella]

I second the nomination for Brian Dean. Awesome work and amazing sounding instruments.

[MandolinoNapoletano]

Alright guys first off let me say that I am not a fan of American made instruments. Being a Neapolitan, I guess I am a little too proud of my own people when it comes to mandolins. HOWEVER there are always exceptions. A nice chap on this forum named Steve Shuniak has got a beautiful american made bowlback mandolin with a great tone. He had it made by Dino Bersis http://www.diodinos.com/old/toppage1.htm It's also a beautiful piece of art work in Greek style. Greek art work + beautiful tone, now you just can't beat that.

[KristinEliza]

Correct me if I am wrong...but I think the OP is asking about 'modern' oval mandolins that are NOT bowlbacks.

I am definitely no expert in this field, but I know there is the Pheonix 'Neoclassical'...any reviews on that? That is the only 'modern' instrument that I am aware of that is marketed/targeted towards 'classical' playing...but I don't think it is an oval hole.

I'm sure you can work with a builder and have one built to your specifications...but that dampens the 'instant gratification.'

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, I know Steve, Dino, AND this mandolin personally ;-) Steve used to post on the Café for a while, although he has been absent for a long time; Dino used to have his shop in New York, where I live, and I had visited him on several occasions; and the mandolin in question is a rarity, in that it is left-handed. It also has a long story, in that it was stolen, pawned (by the thief), then recovered and returned to Steve.

In answer to the original question, yes, Brian Dean is the luthier-of-choice on this continent, as is Dan Larson— IF, that is, we are speaking of bowlbacks; if not, there are many, excellent luthiers.

http://www.daniellarson.com/

WONDERFUL instruments come out of each one's atelier.

Cheers,

Victor

[Martin Jonas]

Actually, my Big Muddy/Mid-Missouri is a perfectly good mandolin for classical playing. Different tonality from Italian bowlbacks, of course, but actually fairly similar to German bowlbacks, if strung in the same way as them (i.e. with flatwounds). I personally prefer roundwound bronzes, but to each their own. I don't know if they still do, but at one stage Mid-Mo made them in violin scale (13") as well, which is the same scale as bowlbacks. Longer scale instruments may make fingering for some classical repertoire more difficult.

Martin

[Don Raven]

Thanks, I did mean non bowlbacks. Interesting that you mentioned Mid Mo- I have one with Thomastik medium strings,so I guess I stumbled into a good choice- who knew. I'm still curious about other makers,e.g. Weber, Old Wave, Gibson , Nugget or other American made mandos.

[margora]

"I don't know if they still do, but at one stage Mid-Mo made them in violin scale (13") as well, which is the same scale as bowlbacks".

In fact, Mid-Mo did make violin scale instruments. They also made instruments with slightly wider fingerboards. What they did NOT do as a matter of course was make an instrument that was both violin scale and had a wider fretboard -- or what would be the flatback equivalent of a modern German bowlback. I convinced them to make a prototype -- same dimensions as a modern German bowlback, without the bowl. It was a fine instrument (I no longer own it). Possibly one could convince Big Muddy to do the same.

[mrmando]

Doug Woodley, Kevin Mathers, Pete Langdell et al. have made copies of Lyon & Healys and/or Vega cylinderbacks.

Can anyone speak to the suitability of Joseph Campanella Cleary's instruments for classical music? They certainly look classical...

[MandolinoNapoletano]

The fact of the matter is you can use any instrument to play any style of music. For instance Andres Segovia could have used a Les Paul to play his classical music, but of course he choose a classical guitar. You can use a flatback mandolin to play classical music but it will never have the sweetness as of a Calace/Vinaccia/Embergher/De Meglio as the chamber just isn't there for it. Now that's not to say that it will not sound good. That is in the ear of the beholder. HOWEVER it will never be accepted as the typical instrument of choice or sound for that genre. To the normal person they probably won't be able to hear this. But take even the most bland bowlback made in Naples around the turn of the 20th century and compare it next to a Gibson F5 and have a great player play both some Calace on it, and the bowlback will clearly sound more suited for it and you'll understand right then and there why the bowlbacks are used for classical music. That being said, have fun with your mid-missouri instrument and focus on technique instead of the gear and tools.

[mrmando]

Well, Bernardo de Pace could have played a bowlback, but he chose a Lyon & Healy A instead...

[Schlegel]

Yes, the Lyon and Healy A model is the quintessential American classical mandolin. I consider it an iconic instrument on the level of Calace et al.

[Bob A]

Agreed that L&H is the finest non-bowlback US mandolin for any usage except bluegrass. In the spirit of the best Neapolitan makers, it seems that tonally the B and C models are about as good as the style A. You may not get the same reach: I forget where the frets max out on these.

Be aware that there are two scale lengths on L&H instruments. The earlier examples are akin to the Gibsons, ~14"; later they shortened it to around 13".

[Jim MacDaniel]

"I don't know if they still do, but at one stage Mid-Mo made them in violin scale (13") as well, which is the same scale as bowlbacks".

In fact, Mid-Mo did make violin scale instruments. They also made instruments with slightly wider fingerboards. What they did NOT do as a matter of course was make an instrument that was both violin scale and had a wider fretboard -- or what would be the flatback equivalent of a modern German bowlback. I convinced them to make a prototype -- same dimensions as a modern German bowlback, without the bowl. It was a fine instrument (I no longer own it). Possibly one could convince Big Muddy to do the same.

I'm guessing that shouldn't be an issue, since Mike Dulac was Mr Mid-Mo, and today he is Mr Big Muddy.

[MandolinoNapoletano]

Well, Bernardo de Pace could have played a bowlback, but he chose a Lyon & Healy A instead...

Yes Bernardo de Pace chose a Lyon and Healy A because it had nothing to do with tone, and everything to do with unwieldiness. Try playing a bowlback while standing.... It's much easier to effect tremolo while standing on a flatter back rather than a bowled back mandolin. Not everyone is as great as the great Neapolitan Mario de Pietro.....

[Acquavella]

Yes Bernardo de Pace chose a Lyon and Healy A because it had nothing to do with tone, and everything to do with unwieldiness. Try playing a bowlback while standing.... It's much easier to effect tremolo while standing on a flatter back rather than a bowled back mandolin. Not everyone is as great as the great Neapolitan Mario de Pietro.....

That is a totally brash and untrue statement. Bernardo de Pace perfered to play the Lyon & Healy because its the sound he liked. That's a bit near sightedness to assume a musican only chose a flatback instrument because he wanted to stand up. Bernardo was one of the most accomplished performers of that time period. Yeah...he made a living doing Vaudeville but technically he was pretty impressive. In regards to standing with a bowlback.....aside from Mario de Pietro, how about Giuseppe Pettine? He was another great mandolinist of the time period and the godfather of advanced Duo-style...which he did standing up.

I'm not a fan of flatback instruments but the Lyon & Healy A is an impressive instrument with a lovely sweet "classical" tone.

[MandolinoNapoletano]

That is a totally brash and untrue statement. Bernardo de Pace perfered to play the Lyon & Healy because its the sound he liked. That's a bit near sightedness to assume a musican only chose a flatback instrument because he wanted to stand up. Bernardo was one of the most accomplished performers of that time period. Yeah...he made a living doing Vaudeville but technically he was pretty impressive. In regards to standing with a bowlback.....aside from Mario de Pietro, how about Giuseppe Pettine? He was another great mandolinist of the time period and the godfather of advanced Duo-style...which he did standing up.

I'm not a fan of flatback instruments but the Lyon & Healy A is an impressive instrument with a lovely sweet "classical" tone.

Because you were there right? You spoke with Bernardo de Pace... right? The fact of the matter is Bernardo de Pace most likely used the Lyon & Healy based on comfort reasons, and the fact it was a decent player alone. And did you REALLY just make the inference because I mentioned one performer who stood up playing a bowlback, that I assumed he was the ONLY performer who could do so? It seems you got a little bit too much air up in your head over there in San Diego

[Acquavella]

Watch it paisan.... Insulting people who make their living as a classical mandolinist is not the wisest route. I might have air in my head but that doesn't prevent me from planting my foot somewhere else....

I based my comment on the fact that you made a definitive statement based of your own conjecture. Don't be a twat. Of course I didn't talk to Bernardo de Pace but there is enough historical reference to realize that the man took great pride in his playing, as did many of his contemporaries. Yes, it's not easy to play a bowlback standing up but historically there were quite a few musicians who did, especially for that time period. Even to this day we still might have to play standing up everytime Othello, and sometimes Don Giovanni, comes to the opera. So to infer that the only reason a musican would chose to play a Lyon & Healy is so he could stand up simply undermines a musician's pride and passion for his own craft. Give musicians a bit more credit than that. The Lyon & Healy is simply a good sounding instrument but I guess it never occured to you that Bernardo de Pace might have actually liked the tone. Rubbish....

[MandolinoNapoletano]

Watch it paisan.... Insulting people who make their living as a classical mandolinist is not the wisest route. I might have air in my head but that doesn't prevent me from planting my foot somewhere else....

I based my comment on the fact that you made a definitive statement based of your own conjecture. Don't be a twat. Of course I didn't talk to Bernardo de Pace but there is enough historical reference to realize that the man took great pride in his playing, as did many of his contemporaries. Yes, it's not easy to play a bowlback standing up but historically there were quite a few musicians who did, especially for that time period. Even to this day we still might have to play standing up everytime Othello, and sometimes Don Giovanni, comes to the opera. So to infer that the only reason a musican would chose to play a Lyon & Healy is so he could stand up simply undermines a musician's pride and passion for his own craft. Give musicians a bit more credit than that. The Lyon & Healy is simply a good sounding instrument but I guess it never occured to you that Bernardo de Pace might have actually liked the tone. Rubbish....

Typical filthy-mouthed american comeback that I was expecting. Your credibility is lost regardless of your credentials when you make personal attacks with such filthy words. The fact of the matter is simple, you can't make an inference of that sort given the phrase I used, and you can't make a definite statement of what a man over 50 years was thinking. Most mandolinists of that time were NOT gear-heads like we are today. They chose instruments based on quality and practicality. For example many jazz guitarists switched from archtop acoustic to archtop electrics for the simple fact that they could be heard and have better intonation on their instruments with less effort, the tone was completely changed, but regardless they didn't care about authenticity of tone. The same would go for a musician of that era. That particular mandolin was something new, with good playability, very easy to handle, and an alright good tone. It's quite sure given the era and mentality of those guys, he didn't loose any sleep over his decision. But I digress because your filthy words deplete your credibility about this issue. I'm sure many on this forum would agree that personal attacks and such despicable terminology is unnecessary and inappropriate. Before presenting yourself as some intellectual that is informed about a certain subject, please learn the simple rules of etiquette. That being said I am on this forum to add depth and contribute with class to discussions, not to argue with horribly behaved people like yourself. You followed me on two different discussions making rude comments. Now I will request that you stop.

[Acquavella]

First of all....you attacked me first by calling, what was it...."It seems you got a little bit too much air up in your head over there in San Diego". So don't push someone and then go crying when they push back. Don't lecture me on etiquette when you can't seem to at least listen to another's opinion and advise. Your authoritve statements is what brings on disagreement. You're accusing me of not knowing what Bernardo de Pace's intentions were because I've never talked to him. But I can just as easily say the exact same about you. Did Bernardo de Pace personally tell you that the only reason he played Lyon & Healy was because he felt the bowlback was too awkward to play standing up and that it had nothing to do with tone quality? No, I didn't think so. Even the luthier that you are so boldly calling "the best modern bowlback" is telling you not to discredit other Neopolitan companies. Yet on many occassions you are still making authoritive comments bashing companies that are very well respected and loved by many on the cafe. What if someone on the cafe just paid really good money for a brand new Calace mandolin but now has to listen to you make snippet remarks about their new purchase? That's a bit unfair, no matter how good your recommendation is.

Look, you are new to the cafe. I made the same mistakes you are making when I first started posting on the cafe. The general etiquette is too not make definitive statements. You might be passionate about something but chances are there is a larger group that disagree with you and are passionate about the opposite. Make blanket statesments like "A great new Luthier in Italy" or "could it be Bernardo needed to play a Lyon & Healy due to his program". Take it or leave but that's my advise......credentials aside. ;-)

[Bob A]

I for one prefer to be fully dressed when trolling and flaming. Doing so in my underwear is, I feel, demeaning, both to myself and my victims.

However, in the spirit of multiculturalism, I'm willing to tolerate such behavior in others who might not have had much exposure to American internet etiquette.

Perhaps it would be best for all concerned if we agree only to flame on this site in the nude. Might keep the temperature of the discussion a bit lower, and after all, summer is icumen in.

[JEStanek]

Consider this a yellow card for this thread.


Both of you should take this offline or let it go, please. Consider the posting guidelines carefully.

"Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times..."

Jamie

[Acquavella]

Well now, at least, Bob's trolling & flaming comment makes a little more sense. Although I'm still worried about how the underwear and nudity fit in. lol.

Jamie - put the yellow card away. I'm pretty sure this is all finished with. No harm done.

[Schlegel]

If I might return to the OP's choice of topic, I think there are many more mandolins made in America worth considering for the Classical player. While a great many cheap and ordinary mandolins were made during the golden age of the mandolin craze, the popularity of the instrument allowed some fine examples to be produced as well. We have mentioned the Lyon and Healy model A, but some fine bowlbacks were made as well. For example, the Larson brothers made great instruments, distinct in both voice and construction. Even some factory mandolins rose to surprising levels of quality- Speaking of mandolins I have owned, here's my experience:

The best of Washburn is surprisingly good, but hidden among the mass of cheap product. I had one with internal construction details such as I have only seen on the best Italian mandolins.

Martin made some very good bowlbacks, I had a style 00 in mahogany that I sold to my uncle, really nice for a student grade model, it was enough to make me curious about their high-grade instruments.

I have heard some very good reviews of Vega's best, the "Pettine Special".

I'm quite fond of my Stahl- the bright cheerfull sound may not suit all music, but they really have their own sound and aren't afraid to let you know it. I like that in a mandolin.

Lastly, while less well known, I have yet to hear a bowlback in person with a better bass and deep complex harmonics than the Graupner and Meyer that I just sold (only because the nut was a little too narrow for me.)

I have just received an indianapolis-made Regal from Bob Hartman, one of the ones from about a 3 year period that he thinks are probably Larsons, and while it needs a fingerboard shim to be in perfect playing order, it rings out clear like a bell, surprisingly pure in tone and loud in volume- a keeper no matter the identity of the maker.

I'd love to hear about hands-on experiences of others...