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Thread: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

  1. #26
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Do I recall correctly that our friend, M-N, resides in the upstate NY area? Is that correct? In any event perhaps you might find this article of interest on the mandolin in early 20th c Buffalo:

    http://wings.buffalo.edu/research/an...ickson-art.pdf

    Forgive me if this is a repost.

    Still puzzled by the question raised by Jim earlier as to why we don't see DeMeglio (or a range of other Italian bowlbacks--DeMureda, Stridente, Lanfranco, etc.) at sites other than in the UK--or perhaps downstream from there. I regularly visit on ebay.it looking at old mandolins and have not seen one there or at the favorite purveyor sites of mandolino antico. Certainly no conclusions should be suggested by this very limited observation. The history of the builders, shops, marketing, etc. of these old mandolins remains so elusive.

    Mick
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  2. #27
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    As to Victor's repeat of my question -- I actually thought I made a mistake but I think it is generally true of Demeglio and moreso with Ceccherini -- almost all of those instrument s made their way to the UK via importers notably Alban Voight.
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  3. #28

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Jonas View Post
    I've recorded it twice, once quite slowly (the speed we tend to play it at with our ensemble) on my Embergher (link) and again a bit faster on my Mid-Missouri (link). There are also a fair number of other ballo liscio tunes in my channel (link), played on either my Embergher or my Ceccherini. But, as I said, I am pretty wooden compared to you.

    Martin
    Great job beautiful mandolin tones.

  4. #29

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Do I recall correctly that our friend, M-N, resides in the upstate NY area? Is that correct? In any event perhaps you might find this article of interest on the mandolin in early 20th c Buffalo:

    http://wings.buffalo.edu/research/an...ickson-art.pdf

    Forgive me if this is a repost.

    Still puzzled by the question raised by Jim earlier as to why we don't see DeMeglio (or a range of other Italian bowlbacks--DeMureda, Stridente, Lanfranco, etc.) at sites other than in the UK--or perhaps downstream from there. I regularly visit on ebay.it looking at old mandolins and have not seen one there or at the favorite purveyor sites of mandolino antico. Certainly no conclusions should be suggested by this very limited observation. The history of the builders, shops, marketing, etc. of these old mandolins remains so elusive.

    Mick
    Thanks so much for the article, it's very interesting. Funny how I am doing the same thing here in Buffalo as they were doing 100 years a go. LOL! And yes I have spoken with many of my mandolin playing friends back in Napule and nobody knows of the De Meglios. Quite odd if you ask me. Most old italian men that play have typically mandolins by the luthier Carmelo Catania in Sicilia, even in Napule. Go figure.

  5. #30
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    It is possible that we are reading entirely too much into labels. There certainly are lots of labels from Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers from the turn of last century and certainly there would have been lots of small workshops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a separate workshop for every label. There are lots of examples from the Chicago instrument industry a century ago of builders making instruments of several brands, and even today I understand one can go to a Korean musical instrument company and order 100 guitars/banjos/mandolins with your name on the headstock and on the label. If Demeglio only seems to exist in Britain, might it not be a brand built/labeled expressly for a British wholesaler?

    I suspect there are lots of old mandolins hanging around Naples. I had a look in a couple of retail music shops during my brief visit to Naples last year and both had a at least a couple of dozen old mandolins hanging on the wall and there is an enterprising person there who recycles old mandolin bodies by replacing the necks and soundboards http://www.oldmandolin.com/ Dave Hynds site contains an interesting listing of Italian mandolin labels and it would be an interesting avenue of research to try to work out possible builders, rather than just labels

    cheers

  6. #31

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    It is possible that we are reading entirely too much into labels. There certainly are lots of labels from Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers from the turn of last century and certainly there would have been lots of small workshops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a separate workshop for every label. There are lots of examples from the Chicago instrument industry a century ago of builders making instruments of several brands, and even today I understand one can go to a Korean musical instrument company and order 100 guitars/banjos/mandolins with your name on the headstock and on the label. If Demeglio only seems to exist in Britain, might it not be a brand built/labeled expressly for a British wholesaler?

    I suspect there are lots of old mandolins hanging around Naples. I had a look in a couple of retail music shops during my brief visit to Naples last year and both had a at least a couple of dozen old mandolins hanging on the wall and there is an enterprising person there who recycles old mandolin bodies by replacing the necks and soundboards http://www.oldmandolin.com/ Dave Hynds site contains an interesting listing of Italian mandolin labels and it would be an interesting avenue of research to try to work out possible builders, rather than just labels

    cheers
    You make some very interesting points, but being an Italian let me assure you that The Royal Family is not something that would be just randomly placed on something for a unique design or advertising point if it wasn't true. It is taken very seriously, and even more so when there was a current King in Italy. As to why wouldn't it be randomly placed there for advertisement benefit? Simple. What would be the benefit if no English people understand what "Real Casa" means or furthermore what the italian script means on the label. In fact until I posted this, no one yet noticed it at all. The fact is the "Real Casa" wouldn't normally be associated with mandolins or music for that matter, and mean virtually no significance to the non-italians who were buying these instruments. There had to be some type of connection that Giovanni De Meglio took great pride in. The problem why we are being so questionable is we are thinking from the standpoint of very modern times, where the world now is so americanized and commercialized. Italian luthiers took great pride in their work, and surely a true italian luthier wouldn't put some BS fake endorsement on his label that would actually hold no benefit to him unless it was something that was true and he put great pride in declaring.

  7. #32
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Graham, you are speculating on precisely what we have been bandying about over the last few years. Too much similarity between mandolins with different labels, too much variety under a given label. Dave no doubt has had his hands in many of these different labeled mandolins. But any assumptions have been tempered by the (relatively scanty) understanding of US manufacturers in Chicago and the east coast, so extrapolation to Italy is muy sketchioso. If DeMegilio was consigned for exclusive sales in the UK then the thoroughness of the labeling 'backstory' is to be commended. I don't think any of the bowl-heads here actually believe that each of these labeled Italian bowlbacks come from their own unique shop, despite the 'fabbrica' included on many labels. I'd be interested to know what level of local involvement, besides gluing on a label, was involved. Connecting the dots is difficult if not impossible from this side of the Atlantic. It would make an enjoyable, if frustrating, research trip from Milano to Roma to Napoli to Sicilia.

    Mick
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  8. #33
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    I will cheerfully admit that I know nothing about the formalities around the Italian royal family, but understand a little about what is required to get a 'By Appointment' or whatever to the British royals, so no offense meant or implied. Perhaps we can be very cynical and raise questions like:
    1. was there ever an actual Giovanni de Meglio making mandolins in Naples, or
    2. was the British importer simply bringing in a line of mandolins from de Meglio or an unknown manufacturer and sticking fancy looking labels on them with the royal coat of arms and the rest as a marketing tool working on the hope that no-one in Italy ever found out.

    There is a fair bit of evidence for unlabeled mandolins being available to music shops at least. The first mando I bought nearly 40 years ago was a 12 string flatback with the label from G de Liso, Music Dealer Port Said. A few years ago a friend gave me another 12 string mando that was falling apart which I am pretty sure was from the same maker, but without any label. There was discussion here a few months back about those wonderful 'woman in a sailing boat' scratchplates and at least two different labels inside the instruments. There seems to be so little information available about how the mandolin industry in Naples worked a century ago. Were there people who just made scratch plates, as there would have been makers of tuners and strings. Did other just make bodies and necks and let others fit the soundboards? All manner of models of production are possible.

    I am slowly working on the next book, an illustrated history of mandolin family instruments, and slowly trying to put together some way of cataloging Italian mandolins. I am looking at pegheads and scratchplates as a possible approach. I am coming to the US in October to talk to a number of builders and collectors and want to spend a couple of days having a look at the instruments in the Stearns collection in Michigan, which seems to be a little tapped resource for research as well as Nashville and the bluegrass end of things as well as whatever else I can fit into three weeks.

    cheers

    graham

  9. #34

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    I will cheerfully admit that I know nothing about the formalities around the Italian royal family, but understand a little about what is required to get a 'By Appointment' or whatever to the British royals, so no offense meant or implied. Perhaps we can be very cynical and raise questions like:
    1. was there ever an actual Giovanni de Meglio making mandolins in Naples, or
    2. was the British importer simply bringing in a line of mandolins from de Meglio or an unknown manufacturer and sticking fancy looking labels on them with the royal coat of arms and the rest as a marketing tool working on the hope that no-one in Italy ever found out.

    There is a fair bit of evidence for unlabeled mandolins being available to music shops at least. The first mando I bought nearly 40 years ago was a 12 string flatback with the label from G de Liso, Music Dealer Port Said. A few years ago a friend gave me another 12 string mando that was falling apart which I am pretty sure was from the same maker, but without any label. There was discussion here a few months back about those wonderful 'woman in a sailing boat' scratchplates and at least two different labels inside the instruments. There seems to be so little information available about how the mandolin industry in Naples worked a century ago. Were there people who just made scratch plates, as there would have been makers of tuners and strings. Did other just make bodies and necks and let others fit the soundboards? All manner of models of production are possible.

    I am slowly working on the next book, an illustrated history of mandolin family instruments, and slowly trying to put together some way of cataloging Italian mandolins. I am looking at pegheads and scratchplates as a possible approach. I am coming to the US in October to talk to a number of builders and collectors and want to spend a couple of days having a look at the instruments in the Stearns collection in Michigan, which seems to be a little tapped resource for research as well as Nashville and the bluegrass end of things as well as whatever else I can fit into three weeks.

    cheers

    graham

    Was there a real De Meglio? Was there a real Stradivari? Was there a real Jesus Christ? Hmmm well paper records point us to -- yes! However for all you skeptics, I will try calling the comune tomorrow to see if I can pull out a business record on the De Meglio company from Naples. This WILL get us to the bottom if it really was a real company or not.

  10. #35

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    I'm not going to bother making the call and request because I just found out some information. Well first off, De Meglio is NOT a common name in Italy what so ever and a recent search in the white pages in Italy shows that there are still members of a "De Meglio" family in Napoli. No English guy would be able to guess such an UNCOMMON name that just so happens to be from Napoli. There are just some things that can't add up. An English bloak couldn't guess that name and he couldn't just put a random advertisement of the Royal Family on a label. It would make no sense and be of no avail to business. -- If anything a marketing scheme would have some famous person or musician endorse it. Not some random family that English people wouldn't even know. And then what English mandolins were made in that period in that style? I'm sorry but I am taking this a little offensively to downgrade not only my instrument but a piece of history from my hometown. The bracing and construction is that of a Neapolitan instrument. Whether the De Meglio company had anything to do with the Royal Family is one thing, but to deny the fact that it's a mandolin made in Naples is absurd.

  11. #36
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    My sincere apologies if anything I wrote implied that the deMeglio mandolins were not made in Naples. I was not suggesting that at all, but raising the possibility that the 'deMeglio' brand might well have been a marketing idea by a British wholesaler rather than simply a Neapolitan family, who may or may not have built mandolins. Other than the crest of the House of Savoy on the mandolin label, little evidence has been offered of any connection between the De Meglio brand and Italian royalty in the late 19th century, and as you pointed out before, falsely claiming a royal warrant for your products could get you into trouble. An alternative explanation is that de Meglio labels were added in Britain to impress potential customers. Just an idea which sort of fits the sparse information available.

    As Mick pointed out there could be an interesting few months trawling through archives in Italy to find out more about Italian mandolin building.

    By the way, do you have a name? It seems silly to address you as MandolinoNapoletano all the time

    cheers

    graham

  12. #37

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    i'm reminded of those gold medalions you sometime see printed on the label of cigars and bottled mineral water, from around the turn of the last century ... "gran prix, exposition de havana, 1903."

    to compliment victor's dampening his wick in wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Warrant

    mandolinonapoletano - fabulous playing and a great sounding instrument - complimenti.

    great thread - didn't know pizza margherita had a royal connection. education is a wonderful thing.

  13. #38
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by MandolinoNapoletano View Post
    I'm not going to bother making the call and request because I just found out some information. Well first off, De Meglio is NOT a common name in Italy what so ever and a recent search in the white pages in Italy shows that there are still members of a "De Meglio" family in Napoli. No English guy would be able to guess such an UNCOMMON name that just so happens to be from Napoli. There are just some things that can't add up. An English bloak couldn't guess that name and he couldn't just put a random advertisement of the Royal Family on a label. It would make no sense and be of no avail to business. -- If anything a marketing scheme would have some famous person or musician endorse it. Not some random family that English people wouldn't even know. And then what English mandolins were made in that period in that style? I'm sorry but I am taking this a little offensively to downgrade not only my instrument but a piece of history from my hometown. The bracing and construction is that of a Neapolitan instrument. Whether the De Meglio company had anything to do with the Royal Family is one thing, but to deny the fact that it's a mandolin made in Naples is absurd.
    I don't think Graham was out of order at all here - I'm sure the instruments were made in Naples (or round about), and I'm sure there are DeMeglio's living there, but the question was whether there was an actual DeMeglio factory/workshop, or whether these were "outsourced" as we would say today. In a way it matters not: as long as these are fine sounding instruments today. Still this is a very interesting thread - and it would be good to know a little more about how the industry was actually structured "back in the day". And whatever you say, it is still odd that DeMeglios only seem to turn up in the UK.

    Just thinking out loud.... I don't suppose there is any sensus information available from that time? You know... with name address and occupation? That would surely settle things

    Cheers, John.

  14. #39

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Uhm... I think that the crux of this thread is not so much existential, as it is specific to the original question you raised, MandolinoNapoletano: was the de Meglio firm a supplier of instruments to the House of Savoy? Until/unless some evidence is found (e.g. an inventory of instruments, a purchase order, a shipping bill, some other documentary source), some healthy degree of skepticism is certainly warranted. Skepticism is the researcher's sharpest tool.

    We are all grateful to you for bringing up this most interesting topic!

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  15. #40
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    I do think our friend M-N is being a bit unnecessarily touchy here. Following a good deal of speculation on the connections between DeMeglio and the House of Savoy, based solely on a 100 year old label, we have speculation on what else might have been possible given certain gaps in the paper/music/instrument trail. No one is challenging the quality of the instrument or of liutero Napoletano in general. The ongoing question is relative to who actually made these fine instruments and if some types of complex marketing deals were involved--no reason to assume that they couldn't have been, based on such examples as Antonio Grauso in the US at the same time. How many made-in-China mandolins are marketed with 'Kentucky-Tennessee-West Virginia' sounding names? If you were going to make up a faux Italian brand name wouldn't DeMeglio (or 'De Best' !) have a nice ring to it? The 19th C. was the era of 'The Grand Tour', correct, so Italia-philia was no doubt very high in England at the time. No one is suggesting these weren't made in Napoli (or weren't made by G DeMeglio himself.) The quality of the instruments stand for themselves (though there is a range of quality of DeMeglios and their 'clones'--whoever made those.....) We've come across some evidence of Catania/Roma cross-stamping/labeling. How widespread was the practice? How widespread was it in other markets (Chicago-New York-Boston?) I suggest a easing off on the take-offense-o-meter to keep the discussion going and keeping it productive. A thorough search of city records in Napoli would be a very fascinating exercise for mandolin lovers the world over.

    Graham, if you come to Michigan to see the Stearns collection, please give me a shout. It is a great resource. It would be a pleasure if we might meet up.

    Mick
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  16. #41
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    The kind of scenario we're imagining here has been seen in the classical guitar world in the 1960s, when a Chicago businessman had an outfit building pretty decent guitars in Japan which were then marketed in N. America with labels identifying fictitious Spanish builders (Antonio Lorca, Marcelino Barbero, etc.), with Madrid prominently mentioned. I do find it 'curious' that every Ceccherini mandolin we've seen has a label in Italian that adds the name of one or another British dealer. But they're very good instruments, and almost certainly built in Naples by SOMEbody.

    BC

  17. #42

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    The fact that many of the De Meglio clones actually say "systema De Meglio" tends to support the idea that the De Meglio mandolins are the originator of the pattern, at least. So many of the clones (90% at least) are so completely identical in every respect that one must suspect the possibility that they came from one factory. Certainly the number of De Meglios makes me think of a family owned factory/large shop rather than a tiny father and son only shop.

    Given the general agreement on the consistent high quality of the De Meglios, might they have kept the better mandolins for the family label and sold lesser ones for private labels?

  18. #43

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    The "price" and validity of royal patronage has also fluctuated widely— and wildly. My great-grandfather (a merchant mariner, as were his ancestors, going back perhaps all the way to the Middle Ages) had an imperial patent from the last Tsars, a "vendor contract", as we would say nowadays, as a provveditore of the imperial cavalry: he shipped horse-feed upstream, as he would make his customary stops in the Black Sea, Odessa, Sevastopol, etc. unloading the cargo of his sea-faring ship onto barges— a fleet operated by yet another such "titled" merchant. I dread to think what those barges carried downstream, across Ukrainian farmlands... Might he may have been the most illustrious Comte de Manure?

    So, while I may hail from such noblesse parfumée myself (HA!), I reserve some doubt as to the true significance of royal patronage. Rule over Naples was, to say the very least, hotly contested; even after the unification of Italy, things remained fluid— we know so from accounts by musicians of the time, who had to contend with a myriad local authorities. Thus some hard facts regarding the de Meglio firm would be MOST welcome here. As a former owner of a lovely de Meglio myself, I'd be the first one to applaud the unearthing of some information about this important lutherie.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  19. #44

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    It is possible that we are reading entirely too much into labels. There certainly are lots of labels from Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers from the turn of last century and certainly there would have been lots of small workshops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a separate workshop for every label. There are lots of examples from the Chicago instrument industry a century ago of builders making instruments of several brands, and even today I understand one can go to a Korean musical instrument company and order 100 guitars/banjos/mandolins with your name on the headstock and on the label. If Demeglio only seems to exist in Britain, might it not be a brand built/labeled expressly for a British wholesaler?

    I suspect there are lots of old mandolins hanging around Naples. I had a look in a couple of retail music shops during my brief visit to Naples last year and both had a at least a couple of dozen old mandolins hanging on the wall and there is an enterprising person there who recycles old mandolin bodies by replacing the necks and soundboards http://www.oldmandolin.com/ Dave Hynds site contains an interesting listing of Italian mandolin labels and it would be an interesting avenue of research to try to work out possible builders, rather than just labels

    cheers
    Graham, I understand your skepticism, but allow me to reassure you that these mandolins are true neapolitan pieces. However, you can not compare italian luthiers with american luthiers. I reference you to look at the bracing and cut of a DeMeglio. These couldn't have been made anywhere else but in Napoli due to it's style and time period. Replica De Meglios have different cuts, and different bracing patterns. Giovanni De Meglio even got so upset about fake versions of his - he addressed it in his label.

  20. #45

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by billkilpatrick View Post
    i'm reminded of those gold medalions you sometime see printed on the label of cigars and bottled mineral water, from around the turn of the last century ... "gran prix, exposition de havana, 1903."

    to compliment victor's dampening his wick in wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Warrant

    mandolinonapoletano - fabulous playing and a great sounding instrument - complimenti.

    great thread - didn't know pizza margherita had a royal connection. education is a wonderful thing.
    Thank you so much for the compliments, I have followed you on youtube for quite sometime, and I love the all the unique videos you have. You have a great tone and beautiful collection.

  21. #46

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Getting back to the topic guys, we will be able to get down to the bottom of this. This summer when I return I will visit the comune of Naples for the records. We will see how it goes. Italians kept all of these records, surely from 1890 onward(I got my great grandfathers birth certificate extract just a while back from 1887 in a small village) however some got destroyed in the events of World War II, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

  22. #47
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by MandolinoNapoletano View Post
    Great job beautiful mandolin tones.
    Thank you very much -- it means a lot to me, considering your obvious deep immersement in this style and this repertoire as apparent from your clip. For what it's worth, I've been unhappy for a while with my Embergher version of Speranze Perdute -- it's too slow and the timing is wobbly as it was my first ever attempt to record my own playing of an Italian tune without an accompanist. I've just today redone it on my 1890s Umberto Ceccherini mandolin -- it's arguably a more Neapolitan tone than either of my previous two attempts, but although this is a very de-Meglio-esque bowlback, it doesn't sound much like the tone of yours (link). I've also recorded a large batch of other Italian tunes yesterday and today, which I'm about to put in my thread in the Celtic/European folk forum here.

    Turning to the topic of this thread (and Ceccherini has some relevance to it, I think), there is a lot of interesting information on the economical and sociological factors of the Neapolitan lutherie trade in the Paul Sparks book "The Classical Mandolin". Basically, my own reading of the situation is that the distribution of "surviving" bowlbacks now is the outcome of a fairly complex situation, governed by factors of economics and class. Within Italy, and specifically within Naples, mandolins in the 1890s to 1910s were played by two very different social groups: "working class" (whether urban or rural) musicians playing folk tunes and dances, tarantellas, waltzes, Neapolitan songs, ballo liscio etc, and, quite separately, a big boom in middle class mandolin playing with classical aspirations. At the top of this boom (and largely driving it with their burgeoning reputation) were the classical soloists, Raffaele Calace, Francia, Ranieri etc, but most middle class players were actually well-to-do women, "higher daughters" and the like. My impression is that the working class players by and large played instruments coming out of Catania as this was the main source of sturdy honest affordable instruments in Italy, the equivalent of Markneukirchen in Germany and Mirecourt in France (the cheap-and-cheerful Neapolitan shops, I think, mostly served the tourist trade). This is why mandolin players in that tradition in Naples now don't have old De Meglio mandolins: their ancestors didn't play them either, they played Sicilian mandolins.

    As far as the middle class mandolin boom is concerned, demand grew explosively throughout the 1890s, initially only within Italy, but then worldwide. Naples itself was an impoverished city following the unification of Italy, so demand for high-grade (and therefore relatively expensive) mandolins within the city would have been limited. Some makers had such stellar reputations that their products were distributed world-wide and are now found in small numbers everywhere -- they're the ones that are still famous now: Vinaccia, Calace, Embergher. Others found that they could tap into specific markets which were much more lucrative than Naples, and by far the most obvious one was the UK.

    Britain was a rich country devoted to free trade (thus no import barriers) and without significant domestic mandolin luthiers. France, Germany and the US all developed a sophisticated mandolin building industry in the 1890s, but the UK did not and instead simply bought them from the source. One maker in particular had a unique selling point in the UK market, and this was Umberto Ceccherini. The top classical concert mandolinist of the 1890s was Leopoldo Francia, and he played and endorsed Ceccherini mandolins. Francia permanently relocated to London in 1895, followed by an avalanche of now lesser-known (but still very popular then) Italian players and teachers -- Sparks goes into some detail on this. Francia spent much of his time teaching aristocratic ladies, and with the help of the other Italian teachers, amateur mandolin playing spread far and wide into upper and middle class households. No doubt what we see now on Ebay UK are the thousands upon thousands of Italian mandolins bought by these rich (certainly in Neapolitan terms) British women.

    Upon brief consideration of those market forces, it is not particularly surprising that good bowlbacks outside the "Big Three" top tier are now found mostly in the UK: a Neapolitan worker or peasant could not have competed with the buying power of the UK music wholesale trade. There is little doubt at this stage that every single Umberto Ceccherini mandolin after the mid-1890s or so went to London: every label I have ever seen, or that was ever discussed here on the Cafe has the words "Sole distributor: Alban Voigt, London" printed on the label. I would guess that this was the direct outcome of Francia's endorsement of this maker, and Francia may well have earned a commission from Alban Voigt. As far as De Meglio is concerned, there is no such direct evidence on the labels, but I note that as far as the visual aspect is concerned, the de Meglio design is very similar indeed to the Ceccherini design (although this is only skin-deep -- the Ceccherini construction is quite different, as is the tone) and I can well imagine that De Meglio also mostly sold to the UK wholesale trade, leading to all those thousands of De Meglios in the UK now, and a lack of them in Italy.

    So there is my theory: one third facts (via Sparks) plus two-thirds guesswork.

    Martin

  23. #48
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    A sensible proposition, Martin, from a business standpoint and an economic one as well---given the popularity of the mandolin during this time period. Did Italy go through a mandolin playing boom as did the rest of the western world? Maybe the home market wasn't anywhere near large enough to absorb all these instruments. Witness all the recent mandolin builders in Japan, Korea and China feeding the rebirth of interest in the instrument in the US. This comparison is not in many ways compatible: one can't really speak to a mandolin PLAYING culture in Korea or China, but one of manufacturing ability and low costs. Still, how many Chinese workers can afford The Loar? Even my cheap Paracho mandolin from Mexico comes out of a historic string playing culture.

    If all those Ceccherinis and DeMeglios were being pumped out for the UK market one might think at least a few ought to have stayed on at home--to compete with the Big Three-on price point alone. The low end DeMeglios aren't that much higher grade than those cranked out of Catania for home
    use or export. Your projection viz the instrument and Napoli makes sense but I wonder if there is a different story to be told up in Milano, with a larger middle-class and a large Fabrik (Monzino.)

    If our Buffalo amigo can turn up some real information on his trip back home that would be astounding. Think how valuable Keef's study of Washburn has been for the conversations around here. Someday someone will venture to do such a thing for the breadth Neapolitan mandolin as well. There must be an NEH grant out there for just such an enterprise.

    BTW, great conversation, y'all. (I'm listening to the Napoli Mandolin Orchestra while reading and typing.)

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
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  24. #49

    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Jonas View Post
    Thank you very much -- it means a lot to me, considering your obvious deep immersement in this style and this repertoire as apparent from your clip. For what it's worth, I've been unhappy for a while with my Embergher version of Speranze Perdute -- it's too slow and the timing is wobbly as it was my first ever attempt to record my own playing of an Italian tune without an accompanist. I've just today redone it on my 1890s Umberto Ceccherini mandolin -- it's arguably a more Neapolitan tone than either of my previous two attempts, but although this is a very de-Meglio-esque bowlback, it doesn't sound much like the tone of yours (link). I've also recorded a large batch of other Italian tunes yesterday and today, which I'm about to put in my thread in the Celtic/European folk forum here.

    Turning to the topic of this thread (and Ceccherini has some relevance to it, I think), there is a lot of interesting information on the economical and sociological factors of the Neapolitan lutherie trade in the Paul Sparks book "The Classical Mandolin". Basically, my own reading of the situation is that the distribution of "surviving" bowlbacks now is the outcome of a fairly complex situation, governed by factors of economics and class. Within Italy, and specifically within Naples, mandolins in the 1890s to 1910s were played by two very different social groups: "working class" (whether urban or rural) musicians playing folk tunes and dances, tarantellas, waltzes, Neapolitan songs, ballo liscio etc, and, quite separately, a big boom in middle class mandolin playing with classical aspirations. At the top of this boom (and largely driving it with their burgeoning reputation) were the classical soloists, Raffaele Calace, Francia, Ranieri etc, but most middle class players were actually well-to-do women, "higher daughters" and the like. My impression is that the working class players by and large played instruments coming out of Catania as this was the main source of sturdy honest affordable instruments in Italy, the equivalent of Markneukirchen in Germany and Mirecourt in France (the cheap-and-cheerful Neapolitan shops, I think, mostly served the tourist trade). This is why mandolin players in that tradition in Naples now don't have old De Meglio mandolins: their ancestors didn't play them either, they played Sicilian mandolins.

    As far as the middle class mandolin boom is concerned, demand grew explosively throughout the 1890s, initially only within Italy, but then worldwide. Naples itself was an impoverished city following the unification of Italy, so demand for high-grade (and therefore relatively expensive) mandolins within the city would have been limited. Some makers had such stellar reputations that their products were distributed world-wide and are now found in small numbers everywhere -- they're the ones that are still famous now: Vinaccia, Calace, Embergher. Others found that they could tap into specific markets which were much more lucrative than Naples, and by far the most obvious one was the UK.

    Britain was a rich country devoted to free trade (thus no import barriers) and without significant domestic mandolin luthiers. France, Germany and the US all developed a sophisticated mandolin building industry in the 1890s, but the UK did not and instead simply bought them from the source. One maker in particular had a unique selling point in the UK market, and this was Umberto Ceccherini. The top classical concert mandolinist of the 1890s was Leopoldo Francia, and he played and endorsed Ceccherini mandolins. Francia permanently relocated to London in 1895, followed by an avalanche of now lesser-known (but still very popular then) Italian players and teachers -- Sparks goes into some detail on this. Francia spent much of his time teaching aristocratic ladies, and with the help of the other Italian teachers, amateur mandolin playing spread far and wide into upper and middle class households. No doubt what we see now on Ebay UK are the thousands upon thousands of Italian mandolins bought by these rich (certainly in Neapolitan terms) British women.

    Upon brief consideration of those market forces, it is not particularly surprising that good bowlbacks outside the "Big Three" top tier are now found mostly in the UK: a Neapolitan worker or peasant could not have competed with the buying power of the UK music wholesale trade. There is little doubt at this stage that every single Umberto Ceccherini mandolin after the mid-1890s or so went to London: every label I have ever seen, or that was ever discussed here on the Cafe has the words "Sole distributor: Alban Voigt, London" printed on the label. I would guess that this was the direct outcome of Francia's endorsement of this maker, and Francia may well have earned a commission from Alban Voigt. As far as De Meglio is concerned, there is no such direct evidence on the labels, but I note that as far as the visual aspect is concerned, the de Meglio design is very similar indeed to the Ceccherini design (although this is only skin-deep -- the Ceccherini construction is quite different, as is the tone) and I can well imagine that De Meglio also mostly sold to the UK wholesale trade, leading to all those thousands of De Meglios in the UK now, and a lack of them in Italy.

    So there is my theory: one third facts (via Sparks) plus two-thirds guesswork.

    Martin
    Yeah you make some very good points. Naples is poor now, but back then it was atrocious. Many people couldn't afford to eat full meals everyday of the month and had to prepare for a day or so without significant food intakes. If they had a few pairs of clothes they were lucky. In fact many men used to wear the same clothes for decades upon decades. That being said.... It would make perfect sense to export your goods if you could gain a tremendous profit. Outsourcing to England to middle/upper class homes would signify tremendous wealth in comparison to the regular people of Naples. No doubt with Calace and Vinaccia being the upper class first choice instruments for most serious mandolinists, who would these luthiers be left to sell to? Regular people. With an economy so bad, significant price reductions would have to be implemented. Martin made me really realize it now. You can see how many neapolitan immigrants came to the USA during that time period. The money just wasn't there. It makes perfect sense why De Meglio and Ceccherini would export fully to England. It makes perfect sense now guys. The one question is did the business records of Naples survive the traumatic events of WWII. We will see this summer. BTW Martin great job on your new recording. That mandolin is very beautiful. It does remind me a lot of my De Meglio. You are right the tone is a little different, but the fact of the matter is the De Meglio is the most "echoy" italian folk sounding mandolin I think ever. Your mandolin is very sweet sounding. Great job on the improvement.

  25. #50
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    Default Re: De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

    What a great discussion!!!
    I'm glad James (mandolino napoletano) alerted me to this one........

    I have a few things to post this evening, but the first one is de Meglio copyists.....
    All of the following makers had at least some of their models that seem to be near enough de Meglio copies.... some actually say 'sistema de Meglio' as mentioned above.......

    Fratelli Bellini
    Romito and Carbone
    Luigi Caserta
    Carlo Cristini
    Frabcesco Donadoni
    Luigi Dorigo
    Gennaro Maglioni
    Carlo Marazini
    Marco Rebora
    Carlo Rinaldi
    Salvatore Rogis
    Francesco Scarpa
    and Valapiglia.

    I can't imagine all these guys imported de Meglio mandolins from England just so they could copy them.... more later after I've cooked dinner. Regards to all, Dave
    No such thing as a dead mandolin!

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