novice breaking tailpiece prongs when tuning

[cflamm]

i bought a kentucky 150 from folkmusician.com and am having MAJOR problems trying to tune the treble side "E" string.

it arrived way out of tune so i very slowly and delicately tuned it up following instructions on this site and others.

got it all in tune except for the treble side "E" string which broke while tightening. i was very careful but it broke anyway. bought another set of strings - d'addario 11 gauge E string, and this time the prong on the tailpiece broke.

called robert at folk muscian, who has been very nice, and he sent me another tailpiece and another set of strings.

i VERY carefully tuned this time, taking several hours for the strings to stretch with each tightening. finally got all up to pitch except the treble side E again, and i noticed that as i was trying to get to pitch, the prong was bending up and sideways. i was still at least a note down from proper pitch, and within a minute, the prong on this tailpiece snapped off as well.

what am i doing wrong? i know two tailpieces can't be defective, and the 150 is supposed to be a very good started mandolin, but i believe i am stringing and tuning the way i'm supposed to. i'm feeling very frustrated right now. are mandolin tailpieces that delicate? i have no experience with mandolins but have been playing guitar for over 35 years and NEVER had this kind of trouble.

i don't want to give up but have no idea what to do except call robert again and tell him another tailpiece prong broke. he'll think i'm a nut.

i really want to learn mandolin and can't even get strung and in tune.

please someone help me!

[...and Master of None]

I'm a novice myself, but is it possible you're tuning an octave too high? You wouldn't be the first...

[cflamm]

well i'm going by two tuners and i've compared the pitch to video tuning instructions on line. the A is at 440 hz. i guess i could be but i'm pretty sure i'm not tuning too high.

[...and Master of None]

Using an electronic tuner you can easily tune right past the correct E and go on up to the next octave (I've done it myself though without breaking the string, lucky me). The tuner won't tell you you're doing this. Because mandolin strings are tighter and shorter than guitar strings, the difference between the notes is "closer" than you're used to on guitar. Begin with the string really slack and tune until you first get an E (by the tuner) that rings clearly - that's the one you want. The E an octave too low will be kind of mushy and muddy, you want the first E that "chimes." Make sure you're plucking just one string of the course, and turn the tuner in little baby steps. The string will be tighter than a guitar string, but not tremendously so.

Also, note that because the strings are tighter, shorter, and in double courses, you will have to work back and forth across the strings as you bring them up to pitch much more than is typically necessary on guitar.

Good luck!

[Schlegel]

What he means is make sure you are tuning the E to E5, not E6. Also make sure you seat the loop all the way up in the hook.

[...and Master of None]

Oh! I just thought of another possibility - make sure you're turning the right key! Sounds crazy, but those tuners are crowded close together on a mando and I've grabbed the wrong one more than once and not realized it until my brain kicked in and said, "hey, you've turned the key a half turn and not seen any change on the tuner, dummy!"

All you have to do is do that once, forget to loosen that string again, and when you go back to tune it you'll keep tuning up to the next octave not realizing you're already past the correct E.

[Jim Garber]

If you are not sure, take it to a friend who knows what the pitch should be or eve to a local music store and see what it should sound like. You should not be breaking the prongs off of two tailpieces. Something is not right there.

[cflamm]

thanks for the replies.

if one E string is in tune with the rest of the strings and A is at 44o hz, i'm tuning to the right pitch, correct?

the pitches seem right. i am tuning very carefully and turning the correct machine heads. it's all in tune and the correct pitch (i believe.) the other E string tunes fine and is the correct pitch. but the treble side E just can't reach pitch without breaking either a string or a prong.

i really wish i had a mandolin store nearby so i could physically see if i am doing anything wrong - which of course i haven't ruled out. but all there is is a guitar center and i won't go there, and the local shops don't seem to know much about mandolins.

i guess i'll send it back to robert to see whether it's me or the mandolin that's defective.

no idea what else to do. anyone on this forum live near daytona beach?

[MikeEdgerton]

Even I, a person that has made nearly every mistake that can possibly be made, have never broken a hook off a mandolin tailpiece on a new tailpiece. I've broken some old ones but I think they were ready to break after a long lifetime. Find a Mel Bay basic mandolin book and a piano and tune to the notes shown in the book.

[TEE]

It almost sounds like your bridge is too far back creating too sharp an angle to pull the tangs off or break strings that way. Where is your bridge in relation to the center of the F holes?

[Folkmusician.com]

It is possible for a tailpiece to have the tabs snap off for no apparent reason (it happens to me now and then, but I go through a lot of mandolins), though not typical. It is also not uncommon for a string to bind in the nut slot and snap. In this case it will snap between the nut and the tuner. With multiple E strings and two tailpieces, it is safe to assume that the E strings are being tuned too high. Usually a string will break before the tab does. D'Addario is making some durable strings!

We have all tuned too high and snapped a string at one time or another, so don't feel bad about that. You must not be doing too bad if you managed to change the tailpiece and get the majority of strings tuned up.

As others have stated, a tuner is great for the final tuning, but if the mandolin is way off, the tuner will have trouble until you are close to pitch. A tuner could easily misinterpret the E string and send you tuning too high.

I'll send you another tailpiece. and a couple of E strings. Once you get the new tailpiece on, I can help you tune it over the phone.

Don't let this discourage you. The mandolin is one of the more difficult instruments to deal with when it comes to tuning. It may seem strange to someone that plays, but you get used to tuning in certain octaves, and when you have to deal with an instrument tuned in a different octave, it really throws you off.

The fact that you are only having trouble with one of the E strings, and the other is fine, may well mean you did in fact get two bad tailpieces. It can't be ruled out. I did have the mandolin tuned up with the first tailpiece without any issues, but you never know.

[mandolirius]

It is possible for a tailpiece to have the tabs snap off for no apparent reason (it happens to me now and then, but I go through a lot of mandolins), though not typical. It is also not uncommon for a string to bind in the nut slot and snap. In this case it will snap between the nut and the tuner. With multiple E strings and two tailpieces, it is safe to assume that the E strings are being tuned too high.

We have all tuned too high and snapped a string at one time or another, so don't feel bad about that. You must not be doing too bad if you managed to change the tailpiece and get the majority of strings tuned up.

As others have stated, a tuner is great for the final tuning, but if the mandolin is way off, the tuner will have trouble until you are close to pitch. A tuner could easily misinterpret the E string and send you tuning too high.

I'll send you another tailpiece. and a couple of E strings. Once you get the new tailpiece on, I can help you tune it over the phone.

Don't let this discourage you. The mandolin is one of the more difficult instruments to deal with when it comes to tuning.

You could also try tuning with a tuning fork, which should eliminate the possibility of tuning to a higher octave. Another possibility is to try a different tailpiece, not the Gibson style with the prongs. Maybe a Weber or an Allen, although you may not wish to put that much extra money into an inexpensive mandolin.

[cflamm]

thanks everyone for your help, and special thanks to robert at folkmuscian,com for going WELL over and above helping his costumers. we need more people like you in the world!

[farmerjones]

I've accidently straightened a tailpiece prong, it would've eventually broke. A stamped tailpiece. Some t/p have swaged pins, better are forged or cast. Sometimes the stamped prongs style seem soft. Remember "your mileage may vary" but i've removed soft metal stamped prong with a drill. Then i get some 1/4 inch long pop-rivets. The pop-rivet becomes the pin/prong.The bulge in the pop-rivet is enough to hold the string on pin. Again, this was not on an expensive mandolin. I didn't have much to loose by experimenting.

[fredfrank]

Use this as reference to pitch:
http://www.get-tuned.com/mandolin_tuner.php

[...and Master of None]

.

if one E string is in tune with the rest of the strings and A is at 44o hz, i'm tuning to the right pitch, correct?

You've mentioned the "A is at 440hz" thing a couple of times now and it's bugging me because I'm about convinced that you're confusing the tuner's reference pitch indication with an actual reading.

How do you know that your A is at 440hz? If it's because your tuner is saying something like "A=440" that only indicates that the reference pitch is set to 440hz (that being the standard modern concert tuning). Most digital tuners let you move the reference pitch a few herz either side of 440 for handling baroque tunings and the like. You could change the reference to its limits and it wouldn't make enough difference in your tuning to break strings (that's why your repeating that "A is at 440hz" is disturbing me).

So, if you're basing the idea that the mandolin is tuned to the correct octave because an indicator on your tuner says A=440, back up and start over. BTW, what tuner(s) are you using? I'm familiar with many of them.

Again, you really can't rely on the tuner until you've tuned the mandolin enough times to know what the strings should sound like. Even if you have the A string at the correct pitch, it's easy to tune the E string an octave higher than you should. Those crazy high pitches are very deceptive to us guitar players.

Bottom line, call the shop like he offered - do it with the one string that remains, before you put the new tailpiece on...

Hang in there, though. Once you get over this little bump in the road it's all fun from there...

John

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Hang in there, though. Once you get over this little bump in the road it's all fun from there...

Until you find yourself alone, in the dark, gently weeping because you can't keep pace with a metronome set at 60bpm and then it dawns on you that not only is this mandolin laughing at you, but that its a sad reflection on your life as a whole.

[mandroid]

440 is only one of the A's A4 is the A above middle C, next octave 880, lower octaves 220, 110, Htz

there are 2 hooks for each plain wire string offered on old gibson copy tailpieces perhaps best to use that configuration..
loop and then the 2nd the string bends around it on the way to the bridge..

do insure they are well seated so no leverage is exerted on the end of the hook.

[Folkmusician.com]

I had a chance to hear the mandolin in question yesterday (over the phone). It was in tune (sans one missing E string). I think we are about to be good here. This next tailpiece should take care of it.

[cflamm]

my tuner actually shows the frequency in "hz" so when i say the A is at 440, it is. i'm not referring to the reference pitch. thanks, though.

[Neil Morris]

I managed to snap one of the prongs off a fairly cheap and nasty tailpiece some years ago. This was while stringing it the 'Gibson way' - string attached to the 'sideways prong' then hooked under the main one. The main one snapped off in short order so since then I've always hooked the string directly to the 'in-line' prong rather than the 'sideways prong'. Sorry about my terminology here - I hope what I mean is clear.

Neil

[B. T. Walker]

Sorry about my terminology here - I hope what I mean is clear.

Crystal clear to anyone who has dealt with this type of tailpiece.

[mandroid]

Likely K150 may have cost minimized on tailpieces installed .. my 80+ year old Gibson still has all it's hooks ..
at $15 these may be better , slightly heavier gage steel put into the stamping die/punch press.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...Tailpiece.html

[SincereCorgi]

Crystal clear to anyone who has dealt with this type of tailpiece.

Hear hear, at work we got in a cheapy mandolin from a certain Pac-Rim manufacturer that had a tailpiece with these sort of issues. Great service, though- they sent us another one, equally defective, right away.

[theCOOP]

I have here the tail piece from the damaged KM-150 (laminated top) I brought home a few weeks ago. The metal is heavier and beefier than others I have here (2-Epiphone, and a replacement).

I broke a peg off the tail piece of one of my Epiphones when I overtuned a G string. I nearly crapped myself. Turns out is was tuned flat the first time I did it, and my instructor brought it up to pitch on my first visit. When I replaced the strings the next time, I must've wrote the tuning (from the tuner) down wrong, 'cause I broke one G and broke the tail piece hook off with the other string. I was surprised I didn't tear the instrument apart.

On an E string during the same re-string, the loop winding let loose, but the string didn't break.

The reason I use the one in-line tail piece hook is that I tried it the old Gibson way one time, but I didn't like that the windings (E) ended up under the (inline) hook with the loop on the turned hook.