getting perfect intonation:

[300win]

No, no, 300win. All we can do is report what we do & see. Don't feel bad. Sometimes what we see happen occurs because of things other than what we are thinking about & that's what I was trying to get my mind around.

I had a luthier graft on a bit of ebony to the front of my saddle at the A strings to get the intonation right and it's darn close to "perfect" intonation all the way up the neck now. So your experience isn't so strange to me in that regard.

Always willing to learn, but I really do like to know WHY things happen the way they do. Just my way of thinking.
Thanks again. Keep pickin'

Well I said I was done, but I will reply to you since you are a son of the Old North State. I do appreciate what you said, and also just to you, I got to thinking that maybe it is the 'bearing' point of the string on the bridge, maybe that is what changed the intonation, although you do have a differant break angle. Maybe that is why it works ? We all talk in thousandths of an inch on strings, frets being placed properly, bridges being fitted correct, etc, everything on the instrument a thousandth of an inch makes a big differance, then why not what I did, you can measure that in thousandths of an inch, and just maybe, maybe it is the .1000 of an inch bearing point of the string on the bridge that does make the differance in being close in intonation, or dead on in intonation. I ain't too educated of a guy, only got a GED, which by the way I'm proud of, and I know there are some very intelligent folks on here that honestly when I read thier post sometimes I have no idea what they are talking about. But again I say that what I did, and have done in the past, does work every single time. Man if you ever do try this, pm me the results you get, I would surely like to know that it ain't no fluke, but again how could it be, as this is around the 7th time I;ve did this. Thanks again, and as Gen. Lee said, " God bless the tar-heel boys.

[farmerjones]

i think i get it, from your first explanation, win:

[Big Joe]

Whatever the reason for the success, I applaud Win300 for his achievement. After all, anyone named after a gun that cool has got to have something going for him .

Someone asked about the Buzz Feinten system. We do both the Feinten and the Earvana systems. I have an Earvana in one of my electric guitars and I love it. It does help with some of the issues with intonation. It was not that big a deal for me to install and intonate. It is not as complicated as the Feinten system and does a great job. There is currently nothing designed for the mandolin, however, if we ever get time we would like to work on one that would help correct the issues we find. That is still a bit in the future though. I think a system can be done that will work with the nut and saddle to help correct many of the issues with intonation on the instrument.

I want to put one of the systems on my electric bass. I notice the intonation problems more on it than the other instruments. Of course, it has larger diameter strings and quite a bit longer scale. They do have systems designed for bass, I just have not had time to mess with it yet.

We have installed some of the systems on some of the studio and road pickers guitars and they like the extra help it provides. The Feinten system is a bit more complex to get set up with and to get understood, but can be a bit more exacting. The cost to install that nut is not that much more than a regular nut on a guitar but does take a bit more work. I personally think it is worth the expense. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion, but the players we have used it on have been very happy. Many of our customers are pro pickers and are very fussy about thier instruments and the way they play. I mean extremely fussy and it has to play just the way they want. Not close...exactly how they want. Often they are not all that great at explaining what they want so we have to work with the to determine what they want. They ALL want the best intonation possible. They can hear things very clearly that most people most places would not be able to hear. That is what they do for a living and they spend a lot of time in the studio where it has to be dead on... not just close. Whatever one has to do to get it to play like that is what they want and what we have to provide. In those cases, the Feinten or Earvana system is a good choice. In many cases it is not needed and we can get it dialed in without having to resort to those, but sometimes it takes that little extra to get the job done. I am just glad there are more options available than we had ten or fifteen years ago or thirty or...

[Steve Farling]

When I first read this post I was thinking the same as most of you have already stated. My immediate thought was that it would be better to first set the bridge with the A & D strings intonated and shave the front edges of the bridge for the G & E strings. But with much more thought on the subject, and taking into consideration the comments of some about how futile it is to even attempt this from past experiances, and, farmerjones' very nice illustration, I would like to suggest that 300win just may have stumbled onto a solution to the previously thought to be unatainable "perfect mandolin intonation" problem. Physics does indeed dictate that string length is the deciding factor, but perhaps everyone has previously been measuring from the wrong side of the bridge.

[300win]

i think i get it, from your first explanation, win:

You got it !

[300win]

When I first read this post I was thinking the same as most of you have already stated. My immediate thought was that it would be better to first set the bridge with the A & D strings intonated and shave the front edges of the bridge for the G & E strings. But with much more thought on the subject, and taking into consideration the comments of some about how futile it is to even attempt this from past experiances, and, farmerjones' very nice illustration, I would like to suggest that 300win just may have stumbled onto a solution to the previously thought to be unatainable "perfect mandolin intonation" problem. Physics does indeed dictate that string length is the deciding factor, but perhaps everyone has previously been measuring from the wrong side of the bridge.

Steve, thanks, and I think you along with farmerjones said what I've been trying to say the whole time, just not too good about explaining things.

[mandroid]

Freely Vibrating string length is the other side of the bridge, those illustrations, both, are not good physics.

Teacher would get out the red marker . (I'm Not a teacher , just a Mechanic)

you want inside to inside , rather than one inside on the left, and an outside on the right.

[Steve Farling]

This is a great discussion. What a coincidence. I'm a mechanic also and understand the mechanics of this situation. What I'm suggesting that since this has been a problem for so long, for so many, there must be something that most, have been missing. Perhaps when dealing with short string lengths, under high tension, the full with of the surfaces supporting the string become involved too. (Nut & Bridge)

[300win]

Here it is the final say I'll say about this. It works [period}, sorry some if not most can't understand. I ain't pulling anyones leg on this, I am as certain of this as anything I've ever been in my entire life, IT WORKS.

[farmerjones]

Exactly Steve,
I believe the string vibrates from the breakover point.

While i see you point mandroid, the illustrations are exagerated to make the point of, i think it was, the second post.

i'll be here all day. nothing better to do.

[brianf]

Freely Vibrating string length is the other side of the bridge, those illustrations, both, are not good physics.

Teacher would get out the red marker . (I'm Not a teacher , just a Mechanic)

you want inside to inside , rather than one inside on the left, and an outside on the right.

My point, exactly. the breakpoint on the nut is, or should be, towards the bridge. The breakpoint on the bridge is, or should be towards the nut. Re this discussion, the high point of the bridge slot is the breakpoint, and if is towards the tailpiece to start with, filing it down will transfer the breakpoint forward, making the pitch sharper.

[Steve Farling]

300win, I have a 2003 Gibson F5-G that has the stock bridge with the typical intonation inconsistencies. I've decided to try correcting it your way. I really think you have stumbled onto something here, and being the experimenter that I am.......
I figure if it doesn't work, it'll be an excuse to get a new Cumberland Acoustic bridge that I've been wanting anyhow! It might be a week or two before I get it done, but I'll be sure to post the results in this thread. You get all the credit man, if it works!
Anybody else willing to try this theory out????????

[foldedpath]

This is a great discussion. What a coincidence. I'm a mechanic also and understand the mechanics of this situation. What I'm suggesting that since this has been a problem for so long, for so many, there must be something that most, have been missing. Perhaps when dealing with short string lengths, under high tension, the full with of the surfaces supporting the string become involved too. (Nut & Bridge)

With respect, nothing is missing and there are no no undiscovered magic bullets. The pitch of a note is determined by the length of string that is free to vibrate, period. The string doesn't vibrate past the first point of contact with the saddle. There may be some induced vibration of the shorter length of string running back to the tailpiece, but that will be a different pitch and overtone series (the reason some people like to use damping back there), and it's not what you deal with when setting intonation anyway. Intonation is adjusted by moving that first point of contact at the saddle, by either physically moving the bridge or adjusting the shape of the saddle.

It's not rocket science. Luthiers and musicians have been dealing with this for many years. If 300Win managed to adjust intonation by shaving the back side of the saddle, then that's where the point of first string contact was located. This would be an unusual case, but hey... if it worked, then fine. I don't think this justifies recommending the technique for general use, because most saddles will have the contact point at the side facing the nut. I think that's the only reason there has been some backlash; it's the idea of recommending it as something everyone should try.

I think it's great that we can share ideas here about things that work, but when talking about a general-purpose technique for something like intonation adjustment, it should apply to the majority of cases (i.e. saddles with front contact of the string), and not the quirky exceptions.

Also, not to harp on this too much... but there really is no such thing as perfect intonation on a fretted string instrument. The mechanics simply don't allow it. You can have theoretically perfect 12TET intonation on an instrument like a piano or concertina (although various "sweetenings" away from 12TET are usually applied), but fretted instruments introduce the complication of strings, which have to stretch at different points along the fretboard to make contact with the frets. This means the open string and 12th fret harmonic notes will always be flat, relative to a fretted note, because the string has to be stretched to hit the fret. And the amount of stretch is different for every note! The art of intonation means making adjustments for this, and it can never be perfect. We aren't hitting individual keys like a piano, we're stretching the strings with our fingers.

The classical guitar luthier Greg Byers has an article about intonation on his site that explains some of this, with a few solutions like compensated nuts that are probably overkill for a short-scale instrument like the mandolin. The goal is to get "close enough." Aiming for perfection on these little beasts will just drive you crazy.

[Jeroen]

Usually I am with Michael Lewis, whatever he says.

Still, a few risky thoughts to help find some theoretical support for 300Win's results:

Wood is wood and will allow some vibrations. I think that means that the classroom physics of point to point waves are just a tad too theoretical for strings between a vibrating wooden support on one side and a slippery fret on the other side.

Another:
I would guess that the part of the string behind the bridge will vibrate opposite because of the string's rigidity. That effect will probably be more pronounced on a thinned bridge, making the effective breakpoint less fuzzy, and, moving it forward.

[foldedpath]

Exactly Steve,
I believe the string vibrates from the breakover point.

How can the string vibrate forward of the breakover point, if it's still under high pressure in the saddle slot forward of that point, the way most saddles are designed?

[farmerjones]

Howzat?

Oh BTW,
I had a solid body electric kit come in with the bridge location wrong. Stud holes were drilled into the body wrong. I bought an adjustable bridge and flattened the base for the flat top. The guys over in the other section, highly recommended a strobe tuner. I have to agree. That really helped. No such thing as perfect has to do with temperament, but the strobe more easily "sees" halves, and or doubles, when properly locating a bridge.

[Dobe]

Howzat?

That's better !! Physics is physics. Period. . . .

[Big Joe]

Of course we can argue the applied or theoretical physics of intonation until we are blue in the face. With all the math and science we can muster we can tell why something is impossible, however, that does not alter Win's discovery. He has found the intonation that is perfect for him. That is a happy moment in the mandolin world for sure.

Mandolins are one of the more difficult fretted instruments to get in perfect tune everywhere. It really is not possible. We have learned to deal with these inconsistencies because there is not perfect solution. Our ears come to the point where the best we get becomes perfect to us. We ignore those slight pitch errors and just enjoy the music. The human body is an amazing machine that allows us to foregive these discrepancies and enjoy those moments. However, when everything is not in proper harmony as best as can be we do hear it and it irritates us. That point of irritation is different for everyone. I may tolerate more less perfect tuning than you or vice versa.

My wife hates going to music venues with me. I can hear when a string is not in tune. I am not talking about the minor tuning issues with stringed instruments. I can often hear them, but like others have come to accept and ignore those. I am talking about listening to a band or singer and hearing when they are off or out of tune. I will comment that I wish the guy would tune his instrument and my wife just glares at me. She did not know it was not in tune. I like to further irritate her by telling her which string on which instrument is out of tune. The same with vocals. She does not realize there is anything wrong because she is not aware of it all day long all day every day.

I don't have perfect pitch by any means, but I can hear when something is out of tune or perspective with everything else. Some have far better hearing of those things than me. It is when my amatuer or non musician friends are with me that I realize how little they can hear. Nashville is an interesting town and the level of talent so high that you can easily become a bit jaded by hearing music that is not in that upper tier of perfection. When I go to another city or town and go listen to music with friends they love to have me hear the "great" musicians where they are. I don't have the heart to tell them that while they do a very good job, they are usually not ready for Nashville. The things I hear they cannot and they assume the talent pool is greater than it is. I don't mean to sound elitist at all, just an observation. I am not in the same league as many of the Nashville pickers and have never claimed to be. I can get around my instruments, but have no dilusion of granduer . It is just an observation of how our ears develop to tones and sounds and groups of sounds and how we also don't hear them. Again, just an observation....oh...and there are great musicians all around the country and not all of them in Nashville. Nashville just has a higher population of great pickers because this is where their work is.

[Rob Gerety]

It may not make any sense, but if it works, it works.

I've learned to keep my mouth shut so my wife doesn't roll her eyes. Took 35 years to figure it out.

[Jeroen]

If the wood of the bridge allows some vibrations and if the string rigidity will cause some movement within the bridge slot, I would expect an effect like I tried to visualise in the image.

[Larry Simonson]

In science, if the facts don't fit the theory, then the theory is dismissed. Theory opines, experiments decide! It seems OP has done the experiment more than once with consistent results and the observed behavior doesn't fit the theory. I'd say lets see if others can repeat this work and if so, the world stands to benefit.

I'm of the belief that the bridge is a very subtle device where minor changes can have significant consequences. I also believe that the note a given string, at a given tension, produces is a function of more than its length. So what OP is saying seems tenable to me.

[Mandoist]

He has found the intonation that is perfect for him.

I would imagine that is all one can hope for? Fun reading all the science, "solutions" and hypothesis...but isn't the bottom line the fact that there is no such thing as "perfect intonation" on a fretted instrument?

...now where is my Peterson Strobe.....?

[Big Joe]

I should all a couple things to this post. First, the Gibsons made in Nashville used the Cumberland Acoustic Bridge. There were a couple issues with those. Until later in 03 the bridges were often fit with a forward slant of the base. This was not really intentional, but the jig used for the bridge fitting was worn and left the base cut where it leaned forward. Pulling it back did not resolve this issue. We did discover this and fixed many bridges. This finally allowed them to sit as they should. If your mandolin is 03 or before you may check that out and if it leans forward get it checked out and refit if needed.

Second, we realized the A strings were having some issues and worked with Steve to get the intonation points as good as possible. The work on the bridge made them far better, and actually better than the original. This was later in 04 and the bridges on the late 04 and after are a better bridge than earlier ones. We used CA bridges exclusively and they are great bridges. Steve is a very sharp guy and easy to work with when there is an issue discovered. Intonation corrections are always an issue we attempted to deal with as much as humanly possible.

At the Big G we had not only technological advances to consider, but the historical aspect as well. Charlie was always going to keep things as Loar like as humanly possible but that did not preclude use of modern technology except where old school was needed to achieve what was going to produce the most Loar like results in his mind. There were a few advances we could have implemented but would not leave the product truly Loar like. The main issue was the tailpiece. We would loved to have used the James tailpiece. Bill is an absolute genius in that design and it functions as well an anything I've seen without leaving the tradition out of it. I do congratulate Bill for that. However, it was too far from the original for Charlie to use. We did talk about it quite a bit and he even used one of Bill's tailpieces on his personal mandolin. I am glad I am not bound by any particular rules for what we build in our shop. We have the liberty to experiment without the same constraints. Still, after so many years with Charlie, it is hard to deviate very far from the real model. Maybe just a bit....let's see what comes out a bit later in the year .