The Old-Time chop police

[SincereCorgi]

I think I might have seen something about this before, but...

I played at an old-time jam last week, and it seemed to go pretty well. Large group, not ideal for musicality, but everybody seemed to have a good time. Anyway, word got back to me later that the hammer dulcimer player thought my chop chords when I played rhythm were 'inappropriate' for old-time music.

Anybody else had an experience like this? I don't recall the other mandolin players doing anything substantially different, and something feels a little crass about letting all my chords ring in a texture that's already pretty saturated with those kinds of sounds (banjos, fiddles, etc.).

Any opinions?

[sgarrity]

Sounds like the dulcimer player cares more about a pseudo-tradition than making good music. I tend to play open chords, some chop chords, doublestops, pick the melody. Maybe next time you can try mixing it up a bit and see how it goes.

[JonZ]

Maybe it was her subtle way of telling you your fly was open.

[sunburst]

I won't offer an opinion because the fact that I'd much rather hear chop chords than a hammered dulcimer means that I can't be objective...

[usqebach]

Well, when I read a comment about a hammer dulcimer player questioning someone else's "authenticity" at an old-time jam, it makes me want to reprise a quote about a verbal exchange between a pot and a kettle concerning their respective hues.

That being said, one thing I really enjoy about old time jams is that I can beat out some serious chords, Ella Haley style (think boom-a-chick-a rhythm), without getting tossed out on my ear! And I certainly wouldn't worry about adding volume to what is hopefully already a joyful caucophony.

However, what I usually do is when I don't know the chord structure to a tune, I'll chop lightly until I think I've got it sorted out (three chords, four keys, can't be too hard!) and then let 'er ring out, still giving it the boom-chick. I also think most jams can use a little extra off-beat to help out the guitarist.

just my humble opinion, free and worth every penny.

[Bob Buckingham]

You listen to dulcimers players? Unbelievable!

[fred d]

I'm learning that at most jams just to keep my mouth shut and not give a rats a** about these kinda people (wantabes) at a recent jam the leader and another got in to a discussion about Key's and scales go figure, others about weather or not to use a capo?? one other on weather temoral? should be used on the mandolin

[Jim Nollman]

I play chop chords all the time in a band with at least two others players who are not adverse to acting fussily purest. I only recall one statement, ever. A few summers ago, playing unamplified at a Farmer's Market over several weeks, I realized I needed to augment my usual melody playing with something different, just to be heard with a button accordion, a bass, and 2 fiddles. So I started chopping.

At the time, I was also learning, on my own, lots of syncopated material —rags, reggae, shuffles, Bo Diddley, Latin tunes. Perhaps subconsciously I started adding these rhythms to the usual old time tunes. One person complained, more than once, that she didn't know what to do while I was playing a samba rhythm to Calliope House. I told her to keep trying because the rest of us liked the sound of it. She did keep trying.And today she absolutely wails over it on penny whistle.

And a few years on, I play odd rhythms all the time, and use them much the same way that purists join a jig to a reel to push the music forward. I can create the same push by changing from one chop to another after every A/B pair. I especially love the effect of chopping to a reel using a New Orleans beat that accents the 2 and the 4.

Then again, I also compose and produce a lot of ambient techno music, so I'm no authority.

[barney 59]

I think that if you find yourself playing with a group of old time or purists of any type that it it makes sense to respect that. I sometimes sit in with a couple of different groups like that and it's their thing so I do their thing. If I can't do their thing then I sit back and listen.

[Tom Mylet]

Back in the 70's I was fortunate enough to play regularly in the Camp Creek Boys, a well known old time band from around Galax/Mt. Airy. 1. We almost never played without a someone chopping mandolin. 2. Just before Kyle Creed, the band leader asked me to join, he told a friend that he was considering me because I "seemed polite and kept good time."

I somehow have always thought a jam was akin to sharing and being open. In a jam situation, I really don't think anyone has any complaint regardless what the other person's playing iso long as they're polite and keep good time.

[woodwizard]

I won't offer an opinion because the fact that I'd much rather hear chop chords than a hammered dulcimer means that I can't be objective...

I think I might be in the same boat as sunburst on the hammered D observation.... but I will say that I play regularly with a very traditional OT band and do a lot of chopping as well as mixing it up... but a lot of chopping!and haven't heard any complaints so for and going on 2 years with them.

[ccravens]

This is altering the subject a smidgen, but can someone answer me this - is it not really proper, or is it frowned upon to chop to Old-Tme music like we do it in Bluegrass? Or is it that it's just not done very often? If not, do most mandos just play the melody like all/most of the other instruments?

I'm not asking your opinion, or whether you believe it's right one way or the other, but in OT jams, how it is usually done? What do the mandolin palyers usually do, and it is done out of OT tradition?

I know many could chime in with a "some do this, some do that" answer, but is there a general consensus in OT music about this? I've been in a few OT jams & chopped some without complaint; were the people just being polite?

I'm not saying I (or you) have to follow the tradition, but I'd just like to know what it is before I break with it.

I think that the originator of this thread was right-on (and wise) when he said "something feels a little crass about letting all my chords ring in a texture that's already pretty saturated with those kinds of sounds (banjos, fiddles, etc.)."

Some serious and experienced OT players, please give some input here! An inquiring mind wants to know.

[Alan Taunton]

I have been playing in an old time string band for two years. We focus on mid 1800 and older music and a lot of my playing is based on melody. However, some of the songs we play need some chop. The rest of the group appreciates having the mandolin do that when it is needed. I missed practice a few weeks ago and some of the guys commented on how they really missed not having the mando to help with the time.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

I think we have a different answer depending on which of two circumstances we are dealing with.

1. If we are playing in a group which is trying to faithfully replicate OT, I suppose the mandolin rarely belongs in there at all. In this case, I could see where a traditionalist would want something more like fiddle work out of the mandolin (staying around the melody, I mean).

2. If we are just playing various kinds of music, I see no problem with the mandolin chopping. I have been in this situation and asked myself the same question at the time I was playing. When the chop felt out of place, I moved to open chords or a little melodic reinforcement.

Nelson

[allenhopkins]

The southern string-band music of the '20's and '30's, which current old-time musicians try to emulate, had few rules, a lot of variation in terms of instrumentation and style, and much spontaneous creativity. You could find hammered dulcimers in bands like Henry Ford's Old-Time Dance Orchestra, which also featured a tuba. You found banjo-ukuleles, Autoharps, harmonicas, pump organs, banjo-guitars, kazoos, and whatever the local band members owned and played.

I haven't heard a lot of the old bands featuring "chop" mandolin chording; mandolin players more often played open chords, sometimes with a "running" rhythm, or just played along with the melody without much chording. But there shouldn't be restrictions on how any instrument plays, other than what seems to work with a particular ensemble, style, or tune. If there are tunes that sound good with consistent closed chords on the off-beat, great!

There's an unfortunate tendency to clothe personal preferences and dislikes in the form of universal rules regarding what's suitable for a musical style. "I don't like mandolin 'chopping'" becomes, "Mandolin 'chopping' doesn't belong in old-time music." Understandable, but not admirable, and not to be taken as gospel. Maybe others don't like hammered dulcimers in old-time music; that's an individual preference, not a rule.

[Pete Hicks]

I am a confirmed grasser with a love for old-time as well. I find that the solid straight bluegrass chop doesn't work so well in many old time tunes. I use it, but I tend to mix it up more. Sometimes I try to emulate the sound of the clawhammer banjo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vgcqCdThdk
Of course, I may be going a little overboard here

[Sheryl McDonald]

Jim writes: >>I was also learning, on my own, lots of syncopated material —rags, reggae, shuffles, Bo Diddley, Latin tunes. Perhaps subconsciously I started adding these rhythms to the usual old time tunes. One person complained, more than once, that she didn't know what to do while I was playing a samba rhythm to Calliope House. I told her to keep trying because the rest of us liked the sound of it.<<

LOL!! I'd love to hear what you are playing. How about an mp3 or two??

I think it's awesome when someone isn't afraid to push the envelope (or the sound of the music, either).

[Paul Kotapish]

Allen summed it up pretty nicely--and there are some good older threads on the topic elsewhere in the forum--there is no straightforward formula or set of criteria for what comprises "old-time" music like there is for bluegrass (which some of us consider just a particularly well-codified form of old-time music anyway, but that is a different dog fight).

In a nutshell, old-time music is a state of mind, not a collection of instruments or any singular way of playing those instruments.

The old-time moniker can be convincingly applied to every possible string-band combo: solo fiddle, fiddle & banjo duets, guitar & mandolin duets, fiddle-banjo-guitar trios, etc. Some old-time bands made room for autoharps, cellos, and even the dreaded dulcimer. And for every possible combo, there are a bunch of styles that might obtain for each instrument--flatpicking, fingerpicking, clawhammer, drop-thumb, three-finger, crosspicking, chopping, frailing, and flailing.

If you are trying to emulate a particular old-time sound or ensemble, the specifics of your styling (chops or not, for example) become important and are more open to subjective criteria. In a more casual setting, it get down to personal preferences. In the case of whether to chop or not, I'd say that it should be a matter of consensus among your musical colleagues. Even in the loosest of jams it can be a good idea to take a few minutes to have a little chat about what seems to be working and what doesn't. Might simply be a matter of rearranging the chairs or it might take a little rethinking about what you play when.

The main thing is to have fun, make a noise you all like, and keep your ears and your mind open.

[woodwizard]

I haven't heard a lot of the old bands featuring "chop" mandolin chording; mandolin players more often played open chords, sometimes with a "running" rhythm, or just played along with the melody without much chording. But there shouldn't be restrictions on how any instrument plays, other than what seems to work with a particular ensemble, style, or tune. If there are tunes that sound good with consistent closed chords on the off-beat, great!

There's an unfortunate tendency to clothe personal preferences and dislikes in the form of universal rules regarding what's suitable for a musical style. "I don't like mandolin 'chopping'" becomes, "Mandolin 'chopping' doesn't belong in old-time music." Understandable, but not admirable, and not to be taken as gospel. Maybe others don't like hammered dulcimers in old-time music; that's an individual preference, not a rule.

I think you nailed it here or at least that's sorta the way I see it too. There were actually plenty of mandolins playing OT way back then but just not with the (what I call the Monroe chop). More of the open ringing type of chords. The great fiddler Ed Haley's wife always played mandolin with him on most of his rare recordings. I find that the mandolin can really enhance the beat in OT and not take anything away from it as far as making it un-traditional. The chop along with many other mandolin tricks can can work very well and here in Arkansas at OT jams and shows it is not frowned upon. There are situations when the chop would better be replaced with open ringing chords and other embellishments of course. Even when I'm playing a chop in OT it's not really a chop like I normally played in a bluegrass band. The way I see it ... what ever sounds good usually is. And let's face it folks old-time is mostly fiddle & clawhammer.

[swampstomper]

A key point here is that it is impossible for us in modern times to "go back" in time, because we've been exposed to so much music that's been made since the originals. I strongly doubt that Charlie Poole or the Skillet Lickers would play the same way today as they did originally, if they could somehow be transported to modern times. There's nothing incongruous about Sammy Shelor listening mostly to southern rock and metal (as he himself says) but being able to play in a Galax jam. The "purists" can't make us unlearn what we've heard and absorbed. Now, if there's a particular sound one likes from the old days, let's go for it, e.g. Highwoods String Band emulating Skillet Lickers, but then that led to Richie Stearns and the Horseflies (who sat at the feet of Highwoods and then went to every southern old-time festival) inventing reggae banjo and the hypnotic trance old-time groove. Which to me is great.

[Rob Gerety]

Was the hammered dulcimer the only one that didn't like it? Probably would have been better to talk to you directly and have a conversation.

[SincereCorgi]

Thanks for the replies, all.

Was the hammered dulcimer the only one that didn't like it? Probably would have been better to talk to you directly and have a conversation.

Yeah, he was the only one, or maybe everybody else is too polite to say anything. I was talking to one of his students, who commented about a long conversation they'd had about how the guy 'enjoys playing old-time music with people who understand what old-time music is supposed to be about', and part of that was that the mandolin chops from the night before had been inappropriate.

I think he might just be a bit of a crank. This wasn't a real purist session I should add- there was a little pennywhistle and some accordion among the usual suspects. Tunes ranged from Sarah Armstrong to Salt Creek to Nail That Catfish To A Tree, the lattermost from that difficult time in our country's history, just after the War Between the States: the 1970s.

The funny thing is, I would love to play in a group was was nerdily precise about imitating some particular stringband group or style. The 'I'll bring a tambourine to the bluegrass jam' spirit isn't my bag at all. Could you recommend any good compilations featuring those kinds of stringbands you mentioned, Alan? I've got the Harry Smith box but you seem to know your onions on this stuff.

Trevor

[allenhopkins]

Could you recommend any good compilations featuring those kinds of stringbands you mentioned, Alan? I've got the Harry Smith box but you seem to know your onions on this stuff.

Jeez, there's a ton of them. I got most of my "knowledge of onions" off LP's, like the RCA Victor Vintage series, back in the immediate postwar 1970's. You could check out this link to the old-time reissues offered by County Sales. The classic iconic bands include Charlie Poole & the North Carolina Ramblers, the Skillet Lickers, the Bogtrotters, Carolina Tarheels, Georgia Wildcats, Da Costa Woltz's Southern Broadcasters, etc., but there are dozens more. More contemporary musicians include the Round Peak NC group of musicians, especially Tommy Jarrell, Kyle Creed, Fred Cockerham; they recorded quite extensively in the 1970's and '80's before Jarrell's death in 1985.

Obvious people to listen to in the "revival" category are the New Lost City Ramblers, who re-created a variety of the old musical styles, from Carter Family to near-bluegrass. Another group I often recommend for a more eclectic selection of different old-time styles is the Double Decker String Band (whose wonderful fiddler, Craig Johnson, died last year). They played a really interesting variety of old-time "novelty" numbers, gospel, fiddle tunes, even some country blues.

It's a lot of fun to get some of the regional compilations as well. I have a three-LP set called Echoes of the Ozarks that features Arkansas and Missouri recordings from the '20's and '30's, including the absolutely priceless Carter Brothers & Son. There was a similar set of Kentucky fiddle bands. Just start listening and you'll undoubtedly find a style or styles that speak to you. And some of the compilation reissues include those "odd" bands who transcended the standard fiddle/banjo/guitar lineup, and added different instruments (mandolin, e.g.) and idiosyncratic sounds.

[AlanN]

One reason why I don't do old-time jams.

Not all HD players adhere to that rigidity. Walt Michael was/is a good HD player with wide open ears, and I seem to recall him hanging with Dawg and them back in the day.

[billkilpatrick]

ask the hammer dulcimer where one might find a comprehensive cross section of recordings from the 1800's.