The Old-Time chop police

[Bernie Daniel]

Anyway, word got back to me later that the hammer dulcimer player thought my chop chords when I played rhythm were 'inappropriate' for old-time music.

I would go back and check out the source of the complaint -- maybe it was really a hammered dulcimer player rather than a hammer dulcimer player. That could explain it.

[John McGann]

Situations like these are exactly why fake vomit was invented.

[Rob Gerety]

By the way, was the "hammered" dulcimer in tune? I've never met one that was actually in tune for more than 5 minutes.

[jim_n_virginia]

You don't chop at an Old Time Jam ... lots of other things a mando can do at an OTJ. You can pick the melody, strum the chords even practice your cross picking but generally chopping loudly at an Old Time Jam is considered rude.

And yes you can show up with an attitude of "nobody tells me how to play" but there are plenty of wide open jams where anything goes where a mando player can chop as loud as they want or play jazz chords or play against or emphasize the back beat.... you get the picture.

[allenhopkins]

You don't chop at an Old Time Jam...generally chopping loudly at an Old Time Jam is considered rude...you can show up with an attitude of "nobody tells me how to play"...you get the picture.

Respectfully disagree. This is one of those "rules" things that tend to irritate me from time to time. Definitely one should be tasteful, listen to the music and the other musicians, avoid being obstreperous, obnoxious, insensitive, inappropriate. And yes, showing up with a shoulder chip, saying, "I play the way I want, and if others don't like it, tough noogies!" is a definite Bad Thing. But "never chop at an old-time jam" is sorta like "never bring a mandola to a bluegrass jam" or "never play harmonies at a Celtic jam" or "never eat pumpernickel with strawberry jam" (oh, wait, that's a different rule). If the jamsters have strict rules about how each instrument should be played, and what kinds of techniques are acceptable and what aren't, they should have them printed out and give each attendee a copy at the door. And they can keep my copy, 'cause I won't be needing it.

[woodwizard]

Once again ... you nailed it Allen. A tasteful chop can make OT even better.

[mingusb1]

Coming quite late to the thread but figured to add a little:

I'd suggest the "to chop, or not to chop" issue in oldtime is much/mostly to do with how the tunes/lead fiddler/jam/band wants to emphasize beats. I've played bluegrass and oldtime bass for years and although a bluegrass and oldtime tune can be in the same key, with the same chord changes, at the same tempo (hell it can even be the same tune!) there are pretty distinct rhythmic feels.

To me oldtime tends to have a lot more of a "bounce". And this bounce seems particularly strong when you are playing a dance (square, contra). Basically the backbeat just isn't emphasized as heavily as you would with a mando chop in classic bluegrass. You might could play those same chop chord shapes (voices) but with some sustain and a bit softer and the police wouldn't notice.

So I'd say don't necessarily forsake the chop chord shapes but work on your right hand SHUFFLE. Think of fiddle bowing.

Have fun!
Z

[fatt-dad]

we were all sitting around talking about chili and this fellow spoke up and he had an Asian accent. They don't eat chili in Asia!

Come on! Chop away, it's fellowship. The dulcimer is an idiot. Local old-time dude here in Richmond has no problems with me chopping or noting the melody. Nobody likes a big mouth though. . .

f-d

[Cheryl Watson]

Yes, it depends on HOW you chop because there are many different styles of chopping, but a steady CHOP CHOP CHOP at ear-popping volume would not fit the genre at all.

[Bob Buckingham]

I played on two old time CD sessions where the fiddler wanted a chop on the mandolin. There is that urban, dream time old time and then the real old time that knows its brother is bluegrass, not the new kind but that old kind.

[Jim Nollman]

And...let's all acknowledge the difference between a rehearsal and a jam. If your fiddle player asks you to consider dropping the chop in response to a different arrangement he hears in his head, then you owe it to the band to try it out. As does he owe it to the band, when you suggest to try some double stop combo instead of always playing straight melody.

But if one jammer tells another jammer to stop chopping because it offends some purist traditionalism, you should either ignore it, or pack up and leave. I've been there, experienced that, especially with the Irish music mafia, where everything not played parallel is regarded as an affront to their aesthetically dead-on-arrival sensibilities.

I am of the opposite persuasion. If someone can actually make a chop work for something odd, a strathspey or a lament or a slow ballad, then I for one, want to be playing on that tune just to get a good idea of how he/she is stretching the bounds to explore a new expression.

To answer the other question posed earlier in this thread, about giving a listen to some of my odd-metered chops, I can only say that two weeks ago I set up two mics in my studio at mandolin-playing height to start on that project. But I have completed only one solo session so far. If you're interested, the first three tunes on my plate are Green Willis, Earl Haig, and Wild Rose of the Mountain. I also plan to add some digital resampled beats, and hopefully a tuba if i can find a good enough player locally. Plus fiddle, bass, flute, some piano. No guitar on this one unless it's a strat or tele playing chord melody. Think of Weather Report playing Haste to the Wedding. Sure, the whole thing may end up being a mess. But I have to follow through with a sound building in my head that seems as though it could potentially be interesting. To hear some of my past mandolin work in equally odd electrified and electronic arrangements, go here.

[D C Blood]

If it's a JAM, then no one should gripe about what a visitor does...Remember, though, if the shoe's on the other foot, (i.e. an OT picker at a bluegrass jam) not to give the "fish-eye" to someone who is playing like it is OT...

[mandroid]

Hammer dulcimer has to make a good sized technical leap to play chords .. with just 2 hammers,
one in each hand.
Vibraphone players have developed the 4 mallet techniques, so they get to do nice Comp chords ..
but it is a very pianistic layout .

wonder .. if there's secret coveting the chord playing ability .. of a 4 fingered mandolin player ?

[Rob Gerety]

Jim, that project of yours sounds terrific. I have been working some with a fellow here in Vermont who has made a career out of pushing the boundaries of traditional melodies in a variety of very successful contra dance bands, (The Clayfoot Strutters and Nightingale). We occasionally work up a traditional melody - most recently Mulqueen - and back it up with a motown rhythm section. We've worked up some Reggae rhythm stuff as well. Great fun. The dancers love the stuff. Its over my head a bit - but something to strive for.

[Jim Nollman]

Rob, I have been hearing for years about a talented contra dance band in your neck of the woods, named Wild Asparagus, that has a sax as a primary melody instrument. I do hope to hear them some day.

As far as your current direction of experimenting with Motown hooks... Sounds interesting, at least in repetitive tunes. make me think it would be worth trying in something like Kitchen Girl or Sandy Boys or Cluck Old Hen. The former already presents that Motown dance edge, and the latter two have melodies that are nothing much more than an inspired hook. Cluck old Hen sounds like it could have been written by Howling Wolf. I wish i could drive by some night and give a listen to what you are doing. It would take me 5 days each way.

If you really think about it, the bluegrass chop, and the reggae scratch can be identical, both emphasizing the three. I played reggae in a band years ago, so when i got hooked on traditional tunes, i immediately noticed that similarity. One thing I sometimes try to do in my own so-called chop, is to leave one of them silent within the measure. That adds the same push you get in reggae. Dancers do respond well to it, since they get to fill in the hole with their imagination and their feet. By the way, the B part to Haste to the Wedding, has this same kind of hole built right into the melody. It's where the dancer's are asked to clap to fill it in.

All music shares these same similarities. For example, we play a traditional tune called Huntsman's Chrous, which was stolen by Mozart for one of his operas. In a contra band, we play it full speed. But at weddings, we play it with the lilt of a Mozart Minuet. So which way is correct? Can you imagine there are people who would disallow this sharing of musical processes across genres. And when you really think about it, imagine a hundred years ago, when some player in some band acted creatively to evolve some traditional tune, maybe got shot down by a purist in his audience. But his idea was strong enough to be used again, and then again by another band. Today that added figure is part of the tradition. And a new generation insists we should keep it sacrosanct.

I'm emphatically NOT against doing songs in the traditional manner. I just like to do them all sorts of different ways, depending on the situation. But I'm not sure what I do can even be called a "chop". I play an oval hole, and the damping technique can be inherently difficult to do well, depending on the strings hit. I'd call what i do a woof, since my BRW has such a lively low end.

[allenhopkins]

Hammer dulcimer has to make a good sized technical leap to play chords .. with just 2 hammers,
one in each hand.

There are four-hammer dulcimer players; local composer/player Glenn McClure is one.

[Rob Gerety]

Jim, go here http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=129295. Give a listen to Honey Bee and Sri Bubba. Two sample tunes available for a free listen. Those are just two examples of the kind of thing that Jeremiah does all the time. Understand he is my teacher - not my band mate by a long shot. He is an outstanding professional musician way way beyond anything I will ever be. I would pay just to be in the room with him and listen to him talk about putting together an arrangement. Which is exactly what I do. He puts amateurs together on Sunday's at his home and teaches us how to put music together and how to put a dance together. Very very creative guy.

Wild Asparagus is an excellent band. They play a regular monthly dance at my home dance in Greenfield, Mass. Very popular - they will fill the place every time. But perhaps even more innovative in the area of contra band fusion and groove based dance music are bands like Crowfoot, The Clayfoot Strutters, Rumblestrip, Nightingale. We are very lucky here. There is a ton of innovative contra dance music in this area. I am not in that league. I feel I've accomplished something to get through a dance in a very traditional manner. But I do love to dance to this modern stuff and I do so regularly.

I almost forgot a couple of other truly outstanding modern contra dance bands - Big Bandemonium and Will Patton's daughter's band - "Elixir" - Anna Patton plays clarinet in that band. .

[mandolirius]

Yes, it depends on HOW you chop because there are many different styles of chopping, but a steady CHOP CHOP CHOP at ear-popping volume would not fit the genre at all.

I think this is the key point. There are many different ways to chop.

I hear a lot of chopping in bluegrass jams that is pretty monotonous. You can get by with that, but a good rhythm player (and there are so many great examples) does so much more than that. Someone with a good sense of rhythm could make a chop work in bluegrass. Then again, if they had that kind of rhythmic ability, they'd probably be able to do a lot of other things as well.

I rarely chop in oldtime sessions because I think other things sound better. But if I thought things were drifting, I might chop a bit just to emphasize where the beat is. Lucky for me the oldtime sessions I go to don't have that problem. A good clawhammer player pretty much keeps things in line, rhythmically and there are a few of those around here.

Also, as with bluegrass, oldtime is starting to fuse with other musical styles. When I hear about motown rhythm sections and what not, it seems like the oldtime police are going to have a lot bigger things than a mandolin chop to worry about. One of my favourite fusions is trad. Bulgarian music, played with a rhythm section that sounds like it came right out of a funk band.

[Rob Gerety]

There will always be a place for traditional old time music. Lovely stuff. There will also always be a place for fusion and innovation. Its a big world out there. I think you just need to get along with the people you are playing with, make the best of the situation and enjoy all of it.

[Jim Nollman]

Rob, thanks for the tip to Honey Bee. Nice stuff.

This thread finally got me off my butt yesterday, and into the recording studio for a two hour session. I've now officially started working on the deconstruction of some traditional tunes: the first one is variations on the theme of Wild Rose of the Mountain. Some chop will be heard at some point, although most of it will be sampled and stretched fore (with backwards reverb) and aft (with pingpong delays). I've posted a lookout for the chop police.

[JeffD]

Hang on. Certainly one can do what ever one wants. And certainly there may be exceptions. But in general, when a jam is advertised as old time, they don't want the percussive barking chop on the upbeat. Its not a rule or a law, but its the custom pretty much. There are other differences too, depending on how orthodox the old time jam is, but chopping is at best "tolerated" at most OT jams, whether someone says something or not.


That being said, there is a lot the mandolin can do, to not only fit in, but to enhance the proceedings.

Play the melody.

Tremolo some double stop harmonies

Play backup chords, (you can even emphasize the backbeat).

Did I mention play the melody?

What I usually do is play the melody.

[JeffD]

I rarely chop in oldtime sessions because I think other things sound better. .

You nailed it. That by itself is reason enough.

[JeffD]

Come on! Chop away, it's fellowship.

Not true. Sure its fellowhip and sharing, but focused a certain way. Of course there are exceptions, of course there are times nobody says anything. But that doesn't mean its appropriate.

If you substituted "play the saxephone" and instead of old time we were discussing bluegrass, it would be the same thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with saxophone in a bluegrass jam, its just not appropriate. If someone started playing "Inagotadavita" at a traditional irish jam.

Fellowship and sharing, of course absolutely, but that does not mean the folks are of a mind for fusing together disparit musical traditions.

For that you go to the "fusing disparit musical traditions" jam.

[JeffD]

So I'd say don't necessarily forsake the chop chord shapes but work on your right hand SHUFFLE. Think of fiddle bowing.

When that is done effectively it sounds fantastic.

[Jim Nollman]

Mostly agree with you Jeff. It's all about musicianship. In a jam, the other jammers become your audience as much as anything else. It doesn't hurt to be good to your audience. However, if you have the chops, and feel confident within your own musical credo, don't stress over pushing preconceptions. To be honest, i started fiddling around with chops, because i sensed that the usual bluegrass chop that works so well in its standard context, can just as easily diminish the potential of a different context.