Octave Mandolin - Need a little input

[Rob Gerety]

I am starting to think about another instrument in the not too distant future. Its just sort of rattling around my brain now. I play guitar and now mandolin. I'm very much an amateur. I would say high level intermediate on guitar and no so high on mandolin - yet. I have really taken to the mandolin and the 5th tuning and its starting to make more and more sense to me. Lately I play mandolin all the time - my guitar is collecting dust - but I will return to it. I'm just a bit obsessed with learning this 5ths tuning and finding my way around the mandolin fretboard.

I love the sound of these mandolin family instruments. I'm beginning to think that it would make a lot of sense, and be a lot of fun, to take my mandolin (and guitar) skills and move them to a mandolin family instrument in the lower register.

Would I likely be fingering the OM exactly the same as the mandolin? Generally assigning one finger to two frets? I know the stretch is greater - and would require some adjustment - but is that the way it is generally done?

Does it make a difference whether you are playing an instrument on the shorter or longer side of the typical OM scale lengths?

Also, other than Santa Cruz and the builder that built Sarah Jaroz's OM (I cannot for the life of me remember his name but he is in the northwestern us if I remember correctly) - what manufactures and builders are putting out guitar shaped OMs? I'm very attracted the Sarah's OM - but not sure I want or can spring for that kind of money. I might want to by something used which is what I generally do these days.

[Jill McAuley]

Weber Octar springs to mind when talking about guitar shaped OM's:

http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idproduct=8851

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Santa Cruz one you're thinking of is a mandocello:

http://www.santacruzguitar.com/acous...andocello.html

Cheers,
Jill

[sgarrity]

Lately I play mandolin all the time - my guitar is collecting dust - but I will return to it.

Just wait until you get an octave. My guitar has barely seen the light of day since I got mine.

Would I likely be fingering the OM exactly the same as the mandolin? Generally assigning one finger to two frets? I know the stretch is greater - and would require some adjustment - but is that the way it is generally done?

Nope......on an OM you're going to be using one finger per fret, generally. Octaves usually have a scale length of 21-23" and that's just way to big of a stretch for mandolin fingering. Some octaves have shorter scales, like the Trinity College with a 20.5" scale, but even that is a stretch for mando fingering and most of the shorter scale length octaves lack the depth of tone that the longer scale will give you.

Also, other than Santa Cruz and the builder that built Sarah Jaroz's OM (I cannot for the life of me remember his name but he is in the northwestern us if I remember correctly) - what manufactures and builders are putting out guitar shaped OMs? I'm very attracted the Sarah's OM - but not sure I want or can spring for that kind of money. I might want to by something used which is what I generally do these days.

Santa Cruz makes a mandocello not an octave. Sarah plays an archtop guitar bodied octave made by Fletcher Brock and they're in the $4k+ range. Bill Bussman of Old Wave mandolins makes a very nice looking GOM in the $3k range I believe. The Weber Octars look nice too.

But let me suggest a flattop and here's why........I have a Flatiron octave with a 23.5" scale. You can generally find these for around $1k, give or take a little. If you're playing Celtic music you'll find flattops about 99% of the time. I use mine for old-time and it fits perfectly. The octave sits in the same tonal spectrum as the guitar, so in a large jam it can get lost in the mix. But the great thing about octaves is you can get a lot for your money in a flattop! Hope that helps some.

[rohan]

Take a look here:

http://www.pwcrumpco.com/

[Gerry Cassidy]

Take a look here:

http://www.pwcrumpco.com/

I have one of these Crump's and really like it. It's 24" scale and does a great job with the 'zouk thing.

The only thing that I might say that someone could see as a detractor is it sounds more like a guitar than something from the mando family.

As for fingering, I have two OM's that are 21" scale and play them both in mando fingering. It would be a chore to do that on the Crump.

[foldedpath]

Hi Rob, I recently went through a similar process as a longtime guitar player, starting on mandolin 3 years ago. I picked up an OM (used Weber Yellowstone F) a year ago, as an interesting way to expand into the mandolin family. A few observations based on that experience:

First, I think it's hard to say how much you'll have to adjust your fingering. You'll definitely be making some major changes with the longer scale instruments, and the standard advice is to adopt one-finger-per-fret guitar fingering. However, we don't all have the same sized hands. I'm 6'2" in height, with fairly large but not huge hands (and at my age I'm definitely losing some flexibility). On my 22.5" scale Weber OM, I can play most of the fiddle tunes I know with mandolin fingerings and very little shifting. Most of the shifts are for reaching the B up on the E string. My pinky just can't get there without a shift, but I can reach the notes for the rest of a typical fiddle tune without shifting. Having said that, it is more tiring to play that way at the same speed I can on mandolin. If I need to play a bunch of tunes in a row on the OM, I'll start to go into more of a guitar-style mode (one fret per finger). But I avoid that when I can, because it means more mental transition of tunes I know well on mandolin.

So my advice would be to aim for a scale length somewhere south of 23" where you're more likely to have at least the choice of fingering, again depending on your physical constraints. I don't think it's necessary to go all the way to 20" or so, unless your hands are small. Somewhere around 21-23" seems to be the sweet spot for fairly easy fingering of melody lines without sacrificing too much tone. If I was playing only backup, I would probably go for a longer-scale bouzouki-like instrument. But I do enjoy playing melody on this thing... and it's the only way I'll ever know if I could eventually handle a mandocello one day.

On the body style... this is just personal preference so I hope nobody takes offense, but I don't much like the guitar-body OM's. They look like they don't know what they're trying to be. When they're sized appropriately for the OM scale and body resonance, they look like tenor or parlor guitars. I just like the look of a scaled-up mandolin more than a scaled-down guitar. A guitar-shaped body looks better to me as a mandocello, although if I ever get one of those beasts I'm still shooting for a mandolin body style. Just personal preference on the aesthetics, YMMV.

I also prefer the darker, more midrange-heavy tone of a carved archtop to the flattop OM sound, which is too close to a guitar for my ears. But that's just me, and a lot of "Celtic" players would undoubtedly disagree. Given the high labor cost of a carved archtop, it will be easier and less expensive to find a good flattop OM. Carved archtop OM's are a niche within a niche market, and I'm only able to play a Yellowstone F because I was lucky to find one used, at a good price.

Whatever you decide, good luck on the journey. OM's are a blast to play. I probably don't play mine enough at the moment, compared to guitar and mandolin, but it's still one of my favorite instruments.

[otterly2k]

There are so many wonderful OM's to choose from, and exploring the CBOM section (and archives) is a great way to learn about them.

Yes, scale length makes a difference... both in terms of fingering (in interaction with your hand size and reach) and also in terms of tone... with longer scale tending to have a bit more sustain and jangle, and shorter scale tending to have a bit less sustain and maybe more punch. Again, these are tendencies and YMMV depending on the actual instruments in front of you.

Buying used is a fine idea, especially if you have someone nearby who can do good set-up work for you. A lot of people try out OM's and don't stick with it, so you can often find used OM's in the Classifieds - so keep an eye out.

A lot of folks choose to start with something on the low end of the price range and there's a pretty solid consensus here that Trinity College is a very decent starter OM. Gypsy OM's are also well reputed, as well as Petersens, in the next price niche. Flatiron and the rare Mid-Missourie OM are also decent. Weber Sage is in the same price range. After that it's wide open for teardrop shaped flat or induced arch topped instruments. Bob Abrams who makes Trillium instruments is in NH, and you might find one local in your neck of the woods to try. If you're open to spending more, there are a lot of luthiers who will make you an instrument to order including Crump, B.Dean, Nyberg, Chris Baird, Spira, Stuart, etc. etc.

GOM's (Guitarshaped OM's) are rarer. I haven't played one myself. I've heard that Bill Bussman's Old Wave GOMs are terrific, and I have played several of his other instruments, so I have no doubt that this is true. There are some Weber Octar players around here too.

If you have any opportunity to try any before making your decision, I strongly encourage it. Barring that, plan to buy something and know that as you hone your skills and preferences you might buy/sell a few times before you find the one that's right for you. I did that... and am now very happy with my Brian Dean 2-point OM which sees more play time these days than my guitar and mando combined.

Best of luck... and let us know what you end up with...

[Rob Gerety]

Terrific input so far. This place is wonderful. Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond.

While Mandolin is fairy new to me I have played guitar for a long long time and I've bought and sold lots of guitars including luthier built guitars so I am no babe in the woods as far as the perils of buying instruments and feeling the need to change or upgrade as time goes on. That is one of the reasons I tend to buy used. Its takes a bit of the sting out of the inevitable loss when you sell.

While I have purchased luthier built instruments in the past, and may again in the future - I am more inclined now to buy upper middle level instruments that I can touch and feel and hear. For example in the guitar world I would tend to buy good used Bourgeois, Collings, Santa Cruz and the like before I would have an instrument built. Also, although I am not an advanced player, I have acquired a taste for good instruments - it would be hard for me to be happy with a starter instrument for very long. I expect that I will wait and think and lurk and lean and keep my ear to the rail for used OMs and when the time is right and my pocket book is ready - I'll pick something up and give it a go.

Keep the input coming. My ears are open and I'm soaking it all in. I'm not even sure or settled on an OM but I am leaning strongly that way - I like the where it fits in an ensemble and I like the fact that it can be both a good melody instrument and a good back up instrument. I like the fact that the tuning is the same as a mandolin.

[steve V. johnson]

I'll confess that I haven't read what the others have written, I'm just winging it. So if I'm redundant I apologize, and I will go back and read what my distinguished colleagues and good friends have offered.

I came to OM & bouzouki playing from guitar without playing mandolin first, so I had to learn the 5ths arrangment (quickly modified to GDAD) that was new, but the scale lengths, ~22" - 25.4",
were pretty familiar.

Because I was chord-oriented and hadn't learned single-note melodic styles a la mandolin I felt it to be pretty easy and I escaped all those comparisons between mandolin and OMs/zouks. I haven't a taste for guitar-bodied OMs/zouks. Maybe I just need visual help in figuring which is which... :D I just wanted to go more to the heart of the paradigm, the onion-on-a-stick thing where they sorta started. I've heard and played some great GOMs, tho, there's nothing wrong with 'em.

I had John Greven build a guitar for me a long time ago and I have a Santa Cruz OM PW guitar, so my prespective on instruments sort of matches yours. So I knew that I'd want a luthier-made instrument down the line. There were fewer off-the-rack OMs/zouks available back then, not that there are a whole lot now... :-), and most of the folks I knew of and heard at Irish festivals played custom, luthier-built instruments. And they were pretty impressive.

I had several instruments before I chose to have one built. I had a couple of Fyldes, a Trillium, and several others that came to visit, on trial from sellers or on loan from friends. At first I thought that a carved-top instrument was my Grail, and I concentrated on builders who did that.
There are a half-dozen or fewer. My criteria changed, maybe even evolved, and I looked at other builders. I liked the feel and sounds of the Crumps I had met, but mostly I had great conversations with Phil Crump, and he helped me to develop my criteria more as we talked and I've been very happy with the results.

I got my Crump in 03 and it's satisfied me just fine. I'm only now beginning to wonder about some other aspects of these instruments that are different and I -might- like to have. Mainly, since I got a zouk with the scale length identical to my Santa Cruz guitar, I'm getting interested
in some of the characteristics of instruments with shorter scales and some other minute sonic details.

Experiencing "upper middle level instruments that I can touch and feel and hear" for me meant going to all the Irish festivals and gatherings that I could to meet folks who had these things and haunting any used instrument outlets I could find that had anything to do with 'em. I checked eBay daily and learned which shops ever had 'em, new or used, and which were online. The Cafe was essential to find out where these things were and to read about other folks' experiences of them and see what luthiers were doing and saying.

There are some great instruments out now that I think can make great starters. The Fyldes (a couple of different models), Walt Kuhlman's Gypsy's, Bill Petersen's, maybe the fancy model of the Trinity (I've never seen one)... I've certainly left some out.

Nothing really can tell you about them like having one in your hands. And there's a nice rank of luthier-built instruments up to around $3k now that weren't available when I was learning about 'em.

A lot of players slide capos around to change keys all the time (a great example is Vincent Fogarty of the Red Wellies, who plays a huge, mandocello-scale five-course Joe Foley tuned to all A's and D's), but I didn't learned to do that, and I'm just now getting onto capo use. It's really cool with my scale length and I can have a zouk, a mandola, a short thingie in DAEA, and if I get really ornery, a GDAD mandolin. (Pay attention to the neck/heel design and size if you'd like to have an instrument that will do that with a capo.) With the capo at the 7th fret (DAEA) I can timbrally get out of the way of guitars; the mandola setting at the 5th is nice for singers and with mandolins. I'm sure there's a lot more that I don't know about how to use all that. Of course the same things can be done with shorter instruments, too, but I have the big long sound when it's open, and I like that.

I recommend you get something soon, even if it's one of those 'less satisfying' ones. Having one will accelerate your understanding and your criteria of the 'breed'.

Enjoy,

stv

[man dough nollij]

Also, other than Santa Cruz and the builder that built Sarah Jaroz's OM (I cannot for the life of me remember his name but he is in the northwestern us if I remember correctly) - what manufactures and builders are putting out guitar shaped OMs? I'm very attracted the Sarah's OM - but not sure I want or can spring for that kind of money. I might want to by something used which is what I generally do these days.

I think Sarah's might be a Fletcher Brock. I'm pretty sure that Bill Bussmann makes GOMs, and probably quite good'uns, based on experience with his mandolins. His prices seem to be pretty good, too, especially taking into account the reputation he's built.

[otterly2k]

Rob - by all means, put a classified ad in the "Wanted" section and see if anyone out there is interested in selling you a used upper-mid level instrument.

Also-- I just need to point out that there really aren't many companies (like the guitar companies you mention) that are turning out OM's in numbers and consistent models ... there is no equivalent in the OM world to the type of guitars you use as an example. Weber may be closest to that... but most of the OM's that are out there a the level of quality you are looking for are made one at a time or in small batches by small shop luthiers like those I mention.

[Marcus CA]

I have acquired a taste for good instruments - it would be hard for me to be happy with a starter instrument for very long.

In that case, if you go for one of Bill Petersen's models, be sure to get a Level 3. The wood on those is way better than what he uses on the Level 1's, and the price difference isn't as much as you would expect.

[Ryk Loske]

Rob,

How are things down south? Gettin' ready for town meeting day?

Lynne bought a used MK octave and it's been a lot of fun ... you're heading off into interesting waters. NFI .... there's an interesting Trinity Octave in the classifieds now. The friend who was charmed by Lynne's isn't ready to get one yet or it would already be in Craftsbury.

Ryk

[Bertram Henze]

Here's my 2 ct about changing the playing style when coming from the mandolin:
Mandolin players are used to play as many notes of a tune as possible and add more for ornamentation, because the sustain is short and the instrument needs to be kept going.
Coming to the OM, you'll find that on one hand the longer scale makes it difficult to do that, and on the other hand the longer sustain makes it unneccessary.

I have learned to say goodbye to tensed-up forearmes by not playing every note on the OM, instead I took up playing more doublestops (a perfectly legal alternative way of ornamentation) and generally let the instrument sing. No need to fill awkward silence with scintillating micronotes, because there won't be awkward silence any more.

For an example, compare Jill's (mandolin) and my (OM) versions of Rakes of Kildare.

[palo-kai]

Bertram your playing is wonderful, wow. And Jill is one of my favorite people on MC, she always has great answers and advice and her playing is fantastic. I've been looking for OM music on YouTube so thanks for pointing out your videos, nice. I'm building an OM (I'm a 12 string guitar player) and you've totally given me a high standard to shoot for in playing. Your sound is great.
Palo

[Rob Gerety]

My experience is actually quite a bit longer playing guitar. I have a gut feeling that the OM will be very comfortable for me - sort of a middle ground between mandolin and guitar.

Ryk - we had one heck of a wind storm last night. I seriously thought it was going to blow out the windows. The house was creaking and groaning big time. We live up on a hill not unlike your lovely spot and the wind is a constant presence in the best of circumstances. Trees and limbs down everywhere down here. But, no serious damage at our place - thank goodness.

[sgarrity]

The OM got much easier for me to play once I quit thinking of it as a big mandolin. It really is its own instrument and requires a slightly different technique.

Another builder to loo at is Joe Mendel. I've played his personal OM and it's a darn fine instrument.

[EdSherry]

Some good advice so far.

Finding a good used guitar-shaped OM is going to be VERY difficult. I have one I bought locally off Craigslist, but I've seen maybe three of them in twenty-plus years of playing. Putting an ad in the classifieds here won't hurt, and is likely to be your best chance.

But I wouldn't get hung up on a GOM. The vast majority of "OM" music is played on something else.

If your "comparable" guitar level is Breedlove/Collings/Santa Cruz/etc., I doubt you'll be satisfied sonically with the TC or the Mid-Muddy or the Gypsy (confessing in advance that I've only played some Gypsy and Mid-Muddy mandos, not their OMs).

I have a couple of very nice Petersens (both levels 1 and 2) that I got second hand. If you're buying a new one, personally I'd probably spend the extra $$ for the Level 3, but sound-wise I think it comes down more to the individual instrument.

As for the "one finger per fret rule," even on my shorter-scale OMs, I personally tend to cover the first two frets with my index finger, the second fret with my middle finger, the third fret with my ring finger, the fourth and fifth frets with my pinky, and shift my hand up to play the seventh fret. But YMMV. But "two frets per finger" is only for those with abnormally long fingers (can anybody say "arachnodactyls"?), and only on short-scale OMs.

[Jill McAuley]

Bertram your playing is wonderful, wow. And Jill is one of my favorite people on MC, she always has great answers and advice and her playing is fantastic. I've been looking for OM music on YouTube so thanks for pointing out your videos, nice. I'm building an OM (I'm a 12 string guitar player) and you've totally given me a high standard to shoot for in playing. Your sound is great.
Palo

Palo,
You are too kind - thank you!

Cheers,
Jill

[j. condino]

I had a chance to play one of Nigel Forster's guitar bodied 'zouks for a while a few months ago- basically his take on a longer scale octave mandolin ( 25.5 scale) on a smaller guitar body with his own twist. It is one of the coolest instruments I've played in years; I couldn't put it down.

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/guitar-bouzouki

j.
www.condino.com

[Bertram Henze]

Bertram your playing is wonderful, wow. And Jill is one of my favorite people on MC, she always has great answers and advice and her playing is fantastic. I've been looking for OM music on YouTube so thanks for pointing out your videos, nice. I'm building an OM (I'm a 12 string guitar player) and you've totally given me a high standard to shoot for in playing. Your sound is great.
Palo

Well, I do feel flattered

Thanks very much. But it's really the existing technique that should get the applause, and I just happened to find it to work for me. The point is that anybody can find a good technique that's somewhere out there to make an OM manageable and easy, even for mediocre players such as I am.

There's a downside to tweaking tunes to make them playable, too: Often, when I start a set in a session, I get blank faces from the other players who seem to find it vaguely familiar, but don't recognize it (let alone join in) until the B part or the second time round. So keeping a tune recognizable is the challenge you earn in compensation for the easier technique.

[John McGann]

Some OM thoughts

[Rob Gerety]

I just came across this - if you try to ignore the rather amateur playing you can hear a petty decent instrument I think -



BTW - Lee, is this your mandolin?

[Johnozouk]

Can't tell from the video, but I suspect that in this video Steve is playing his Old Wave OM made by Bill Bussman. Bill makes a great instrument. Steve will be one of the instructors at ZoukFest, so if you come to ZF you can probably see this instrument and a lot of others from many different makers--luthier and commercial built. Bill may stop by too, so you can have a chance to talk to him. Herb Taylor usually shows up at ZF with a large number of instruments. Steve is not only a great musician, he is a first rate instructor.

John

[Rob Gerety]

I would trade my first born to be able to play like that.