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Thread: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

  1. #1
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    [WARNING: Marathon first post. And you thought Avatar was long and drawn out.... ]

    I know, I know, this question's been done to death. But after lurking here for a year or so, I'm still not satisfied with the answers I've seen.

    The standard response is elaborations on three themes: "Speed isn't everything," "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast," and "It takes many hours of woodshedding."

    Yep, yep, and yep. I agree. I teach music for a living (fiddle, banjo, guitar, and some mandolin). And I know that logging off here and sitting down with my mando right now would be a better use of my time. Still, I'm hoping some of you kind folks can suggest some specific tools and methods for increasing picking speed (and with that, improving tremolo).

    Just so's we don't reinvent the wheel:

    (1) I'm putting in a couple of hours a day playing mandolin, 6-7 days a week.
    (2) I've been flatpicking guitar for over 30 years, with a break in the middle after damaging my right ulnar nerve. Tests show full recovery--I have better than average nerve conduction, and normal use of my hand and fingers. I've played mandolin for about 4 years now (and for another 4 years about 25 years ago).
    (3) I can pick up to about 112 bpm (four eighth notes per metronome click) and be relaxed and comfortable, but I'm used to playing fiddle in groups that commonly run reels at anywhere from 108 to 136 bpm. I want to go that fast--comfortably--on mando, too.
    (4) Left hand isn't a problem--it can keep up with anything on fiddle, and so far, whatever my right hand is capable of.
    (5) I play down on the beats, up on the "ands," and can pick with good fluency, rock solid timing, rhythm, and feel--at speeds 112 bpm and below.
    (6) Yes, I use a metronome to check my pace and measure progress. I was stuck in the upper 90s for a while, then in the 104 to 108 bpm range. So I can see progress--it's just agonizingly slow. I'm 51. I'd like to ease up to, say, 126 bpm before I reach the Geritol/Depends stage.
    (7) I use a Bluechip pick, play on GHS strings (11, 16, 26, 40), on a Weber Yellowstone professionally set up--low, clean action.

    I really like the Dan Crary quote someone here has as part of their signature about learning to play well isn't a technique but a decision to make a commitment and do the work. And I've been doing that. Here's my approach so far.

    I developed some picking warm ups to help loosen and relax my wrist. I do some standard cross picking on open strings, then onto some speed-smoothness-and-accuracy specific things, like:

    Start on the G string and pick across the range of motion
    GGGGGGGG|GDDDGDDD|GAAAGAAA|GEEEGEEE| and back down again

    Flip that and pick
    EEEEEEEE|EAAAEAAA|EDDDEDDD|EGGGEGGG| and back up again

    Work on basic DUDU picking on single strings, and on basic adjacent-string crossings (e.g., DADADADA, where you're picking on the "outside" of each course of strings, and ADADADAD, where you're picking "inside" each course of strings).

    Strum double, triple, and quad stops.

    Focus my mind's eye and ear on Mike Compton's image of "rubbing" the strings, rather than just slapping at them.

    Set aside time every day to just work on tremolo, right hand only, and also in some tunes (Midnight on the Water, Ookpik Waltz, Faded Love, etc.).

    Play lots of tunes, just relaxing into them and playing as smoothly and cleanly as possible. (They sound fine, just too slow. ) Spend some time with the metronome and bump the speed up 2 or 4 bpm to push my comfort zone.

    I've also quit anchoring my pinkie (a carry over from decades of playing 5-string banjo), and I've recently moved the pick a millimeter or two closer to under the knuckle of my right thumb, rather than out under the pad of the thumb. This seems to help. My right-hand fingers are relaxed, sometimes open and loose, sometimes curled and loose. I was pleasantly surprised to see Mike Marshall's right hand typically flux between these same two hand shapes.

    If you're still reading, yes, "Picking above 140 bpm isn't a technique, it's a lifestyle" is true and pithy and brilliant. I love that quip. So what specifically makes up that lifestyle?

    Thanks!
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Registered User fredfrank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    I've tried about every pick out there in order to find the one that was easiest to play fast. The thing I discovered, for me anyway, is that thinner picks don't necessarily allow me to go faster. I find that trying to get good tone from a thin pick makes me tense up. Using the Blue Chip TAD60 allows me to get good tone and move along at a pretty good clip. The ProPlec 1.5 mm is a similar pick. I like a three point pick, but with rounded edges - a bit of a knife edge bevel. No speed bevel. I have found that a speed bevel actually doesn't help with speed. I'm not sure why anyone wants that feature. Whenever one of my plastic picks would wear like that, I'd toss it out.

    I'm not an expert on speed, but after playing with a band where I needed to pick up the pace, I have found that to get faster, I have to focus on pushing myself up that metronome beyond the comfort level every time I practice. I'm still working on it, but I can get it going around 130 bpm now. Good luck.

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    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Wish I had your dedication.
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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    Registered User fredfrank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    One more thing. I don't know what the motion of your picking hand is, but I recently discovered that mine could be more efficient. Previously, I was moving my hand parallel with the strings, and dipping down with my thumb and forefinger to pick the strings. While this was working okay, it was not easy to play fast. Now, I have a slight angle of my picking plane to the plane of the strings. Imagine: > Instead of = This allows me to move my right hand up and down and leave my dipping action out of it. Try keeping your picking motion straight up and down and tilt your mandolin back like you just developed a pot belly (now you know how I discovered this) - your pick will move into and out of the strings with the greatest efficiency.

    This epiphany has drastically helped my speed, and ease of playing.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    You don't say how long you've been playing mandolin or how long you've specifically been working on improving your speed. It does take a lot longer than I think people estimate to learn to pick well at speeds 120 bpm +. You have to both work on getting a fabulously economical, relaxed, light touch at slow speeds, and you also need to gain experience at high speeds. If you can work on both in a focused way for an hour or two each day, it will still take you a couple of years to be playing comfortably at the speeds you want to achieve, and probably longer before you are comfortable with them in performance too (from where say you are now). That's been my own experience, at least. I'm sure it depends somewhat on your starting age and general dexterity, as well as what your musical goals are.

    I think when people say it's a lifestyle, they are pointing out that if you want to pick well and cleanly and consistently at 140+ bpm you literally have to be playing the mandolin all day every day for years. It sounds like you're doing the right things, you just have to do them for longer.
    Last edited by OldSausage; Jan-25-2010 at 11:02am.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    I would suggest playing scales (I know yuk!), but run them in quarter, sixteenth , etc with a metronome starting slow and increasing speed. Another good exercise is to play the scales with triplets on each note or throughout the scale. Jazzmando.com has a bunch of helpful articles and exercises for developing tone etc, which in the long term can also help with speed. My reasoning for suggesting scales is, it has helped me, and I believe that part of playing faster is confidence and knowing your fingerboard helps in that regard.
    Pay attention to your right hand and learn to pull tone without digging in to the string. You can pull volume without digging in as well. I think that a heavier pick (I use a 1.5mm) helped for me, but others use lighter. Try different points as well. I used to like a pointy pick but use a rounder one now, as I find with tremelo the round pick "floats" across the strings better, more like a bow. It just takes time and work. Not that I'm there, but these are some things I found to help.

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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Always get hung up on this. Can you give a known example of a mandolin break at 120+ bpm? Say, Monroe Rawhide, 1951 version, or Skaggs' Little Maggie (Andy L. on mandolin), or Duffey on Tennessee Blue, Seldom Scene Act IV. I would imagine these examples are > 120 bpm.

    Thanks.

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    Registered User Ken_P's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Fred made an excellent point that I'd like to expand on a little bit. I think the single most important technical aspect to developing speed is efficiency in both hands. Mainly in the right hand, you need to figure out the way to get the most tone with the least movement. I can't give very specific pointers, other than to say that it will vary slightly depending on the sound you want. I wouldn't ignore the left hand either. Yes, you can move your fingers quickly, but once you get to a certain speed, they tend to start flying all over the place. Work on keeping the fretting motion clean and precise.

    Take a tune you know well, play it at a reasonable tempo, and really concentrate on moving your fingers as little as possible, with as little pressure as possible while still hitting all the notes cleanly. Then play it again, and pay attention to the right hand, making sure you're getting a full sound out of every note, all while keeping your wrist as steady and relaxed as possible. Keep working on both hands until it feels more natural - I'd be willing to bet that by the time you've got both hands working well, you can get the speed you want without even thinking about it.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    Always get hung up on this. Can you give a known example of a mandolin break at 120+ bpm? Say, Monroe Rawhide, 1951 version, or Skaggs' Little Maggie (Andy L. on mandolin), or Duffey on Tennessee Blue, Seldom Scene Act IV. I would imagine these examples are > 120 bpm.

    Thanks.

    If you have a metronome with a tap function, tap it on each bass beat to get the rhythm. I don't have the 1951 version of Rawhide, but when Monroe played it on the "Live at Mechanics Hall" recording, he did it at about 180bpm. Skaggs "Little Maggie" on 'Bluegrass Rules' is about 165bpm. On 'Act Four' Duffey plays Tennessee Blues at about 170bpm.

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    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Thanks for the tips and thoughtful replies!

    David, your eyes must have glazed over my OP--I mentioned that I've flatpicked guitar for more than 30 years and 4 on mandolin. (Also, before mando, I played Irish tunes on tenor banjo for about 4 years.)

    So--I've put in thousands of hours of dedicated effort on this--that's what's frustrating. Especially since I can play fiddle at good speed (in the "lifestyle range of 160 bpm). I'l put in thousands more hours, I'm sure, but I'd like some reasons for optimism.

    I do also play scales, usually folded scales (e.g., |GABG ABCA|BCDB CDEC| etc.) a lot for warm up and cool downs.

    And my left hand is never the problem. As I said, it keeps up fine on fiddle at high speeds. On mando, it always feels like my left-hand fingers are comfortable and relaxed, while my right struggles to maintain anything above 112 bpm.

    I'll keep experimenting with picks, but so far I like the BC 60s best. I also occasionally use a few different Wegens. I gave up on thin picks a long time ago--too slappy and thin in tone.

    The advice on the angle of your pick over the plane of the strings is interesting. I've always avoided tilting the mando (or guitar, banjo, etc.) as though on a potbelly because (1) it makes the fingering angle less efficient, and (2) Mike Marshall advises against it. Seriously, after studying the picking motions of Marshall and Thile on some great close-up YouTube clips, it's clear that they keep the plane of the strings basically vertical, and their right hands parallel that plane. Am I missing something?

    Keep it coming, puhleeze. Good food for thought so far.
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Rob G., thanks for calling it determination. I'm beginning to think it's more of an insane, obsessive stubbornness.

    I like that quote from Dan Crary so much, I'm pasting it here:

    "I'm convinced that playing well is not so much a technique as it is a decision. It's a commitment to do the work, strive for concentration, get strategic about advancing by steps, and push patiently forward toward the goal."
    - Dan Crary
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Your welcome. I have a touch of that same insane stubbornness myself. I have no where near the experience you do. Truthfully, the fact that you bumped up against a wall at 112 makes me feel a lot better about the fact that I have a heck of a time getting reels up to 100.

    I've been feeling a pull toward Americana and Folk and Blues type stuff lately and I must say the speed wall might be a part of it. Being honest, I don't even ejoy that BG stuff that gets up in the 150 range and over when I'm listening. Gives me a headache.
    Rob G.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Couple or three thoughts:

    I have been playing a long time, no, a very long time. Several years ago my jam asked me to slow down. I was stunned. I hadn't noticed. Like the proverbial boiled frog, I had gotten faster without knowing it.

    I don't think one hand problems is the way to look at it, but coordination between both hands. I have often felt my left hand could not keep up with how fast my right hand could pick, and also often felt that I could not pick the strings as fast as the pyrotechniques my left hand was getting down. Its like saying you can type fast, if only you were asked to type LDLDLDLDLDLDLDLD.

    Playing fast more often puts the spotlight on me, which adds tension and nerves of course, but more importantly, takes the light off the tune. I am more into playing the tune the way I think it can best be played. How many hot fiddlers play "Drowsie Maggie" so fast that a name change is in order, perhaps "Benzedrine Phil".

    All that being said, I am to the point where I can play as fast as is usually required, with folks who are playing and not showing off. The fastest playing I do is for contra dances, and I can usually keep up.

    I can't remember once that I ever made speed progress by trying to.
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    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    One thing did occur to me that may not have been mentioned. Liberal use of pull offs and hammer ons. I think that can help - and often makes the piece sound better rhythmically.

    Yea, the fastest thing I run into is contra dances - and it is a struggle for me at times.
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Here is something funny, I can play a hornpipe a lot faster than a reel. If I "hornpipe" the reel I can play it much faster too. Something about the rhythm is just less effort.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Well, I didn't mean to imply that my hands aren't well coordinated when playing. I can play tunes that are tricky for the left hand and it still feels like it's my pick hand that's holding me back.

    I play a lot of Irish, and for step dancers and ceilis, the dancers typically want reels anywhere from 106 bpm up to 126 bpm. No problem on fiddle. But I'd like to play there on mando too. I don't see that tempo range as "too fast to be musical" or to play the music well with feel and expressiveness. (In other words, I'm not looking to blaze along at 160 bpm.)

    I also played banjo in a bluegrass band for 6 years, and we routinely (and comfortably) played tunes at >130 bpm. You wouldn't get invited back to the big festivals if you couldn't play at tempo. So a certain facility with speed *is* part of this music we play.

    "I can't remember once that I ever made speed progress by trying to."
    That's interesting. To be honest, nearly all of my playing and practice time is aimed at playing smoothly, cleanly, and expressively, with good tone and solid rhythm and timing. I'm happy with how I sound...except when the jam or group goes faster than I can keep up. So the speed issue has become a focus.

    Sounds like I just need another 8,000 hours of playing....
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Sorry Miss Lonelyhearts, I missed the bit where you said how long you had been playing. I think you're right about the angle of the pick. I also have found the same as you that it takes the right hand longer than the left hand to get up to speed, and of course you already have the left hand skills from other instruments. The way I look at it, those of us who start (or restart) the mandolin later in life are essentially in the same position as people recovering from a stroke. It takes a lot of patient effort to regrow and reroute those neural pathways, and as long as you are doing the right kind of therapy for your condition, eventually your brain will do what is required of it. How long it will take is I think probably more dictated by physiology than methodology, unless there's something drastically wrong with your technique.

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    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    No worries, David. My first post was a long confessional--I'm surprised anyone bothered to wade through all of it.

    LOL at the stroke analogy. "I've suffered a pick stroke!"

    Just had a good picker sit down with me to watch and critique my technique. Main thing he saw was some tension in the wrist that transfers up the forearm. So I'm slowing down to meditate on that for a while.

    He also suggested driving the pick more with the thumb, rather than the thumb not moving much on its own. Show of hands for those who agree with this, vs. those whose thumbs tend to be fairly quiet or passive (and the motion comes mostly from the wrist)?
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    I play a lot of Irish, and for step dancers and ceilis, the dancers typically want reels anywhere from 106 bpm up to 126 bpm. No problem on fiddle. But I'd like to play there on mando too. ...
    Here is another generalization.

    All things being equal, the mandoln cannot be played as fast as the fiddle. It just takes more pressure to bend those two strongs over the fret as opposed to just stopping one string against the finger boad. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. Coordination with the bow is a bit harder than with a pick, so perhaps its equal in that sense, but just playing note after note, as in a reel, the fiddle plays faster easier.

    I play both, well I play mandolin and sort of play fiddle, but I can feel the difference.

    The secret here is that the mandolin is not just plucked fiddle. It can't emlulate fiddle as well as a fiddle can, nor should it. So I do mandolinny things on the mandolin, things you can't do on the fiddle easily, I do lots of tremolo, lots of double stops, I glide in and of chords to melody and back to chords, play a harmony up the neck above the fiddle in first position. I let the fiddle carry the tune, and I carry the filigree.

    It can sound amazing, and even fast fiddle players with testosterone poisening will compliment you on how beautiful your mandolin sounded.


    So there's three more ideas for the mix - the fiddle can be played faster, the fiddle will alwys be better at being a fiddle than mandolin can be, and when the mandolin is doing what it does best it cannot be beat.

    Two last points: there will always be someone faster than you, but, thank heavens, there will always be someone not as fast as you. So enjoy.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Actually, I can do all those things--double stops, tremolo, up the neck, etc.--on fiddle, too. They don't have much pace in pure drop Irish trad music, but they come in handy on old time and bluegrass tunes.

    I'm not trying to emulate fiddle on mandolin. Just want to play up to speed. I don't think 126 bpm on mando is asking too much for the instrument.

    I'll just keep easing on down that road. See where I get in another 4 years time.
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    I have a suggestion. Learn some somgs that just HAVE to be played fast, at 130, 140 or so. E.G. "Goin' Back to Old Kentucky." Begin by getting your chop really solid, then play the melody at tempo, as simply as possible. Get that four notes per click. When you play faster and faster, simpler things start sounding really good. The faster you play the more fiddly notes you can leave out. Listen to Bill Monroe, the master of minimalistic solos.
    Another thing, mentioned in threads before, is using rest strokes. The pick psses through the strings and follows through to the next string and sort of bounces back (the Trampoline Effect). Be patient with yourself; building speed takes a while.

  23. #22
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Thanks Pete, yeah I need to work on my chops at speed, too, and that seems to help a lot with loosening up the wrist and just sheer speed. Monroe's a monster on those simple lines at warp speed. Still not sure what that trampoline effect feels like--must go find out. Good ideas!

    Patience? Aarrgghhhh!
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Registered User swampy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hicks View Post
    I have a suggestion. Learn some somgs that just HAVE to be played fast, at 130, 140 or so. E.G. "Goin' Back to Old Kentucky." Begin by getting your chop really solid, then play the melody at tempo, as simply as possible. Get that four notes per click. When you play faster and faster, simpler things start sounding really good. The faster you play the more fiddly notes you can leave out. Listen to Bill Monroe, the master of minimalistic solos.
    I second Pete wholeheartedly! I would also like to add that if you watch Bill or Ronnie McCoury on the youtube, you'll notice an exceptionally loose and fluid wrist on the right hand. "Like flingin' water off a dish rag"

  25. #24
    Registered User fredfrank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    When I suggested tilting your instrument back, I was actually trying to describe the angle of attack I use. I actually hold the instrument straight up and down, but my pick comes into the string I am trying to pick from slightly above the string above it -- then stops short of the one below, and returns on the upstroke on the same plane. If you move your right hand up and down on the same plane as your strings, you will only be able to play between the strings, and it will be harder to skip strings or crosspick.

    Now I would never advise going against advice that someone like Mike Marshall gives, but this one shift in right hand plane has made a huge difference for me with regard to ease of playing up to speed.

  26. #25
    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Fred, I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are doing. Can you do a video? Or elaborate a little more?
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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