Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

[foldedpath]

It may also be helpful to watch video of people who do it well (or see them playing live when you can of course, as I'm sure you do). I love to watch the Homespun Tapes DVD of Bill Monroe, for example, for me it's "monkey see, monkey do" and I pick up a lot of subtle cues of posture and fine control that I can't get from reading words on a page.

Just an observation here. As someone who mostly plays Irish traditional and Contra Dance fiddle tunes when I'm picking fast, I don't get much out of watching Bluegrass pickers. Bluegrass breaks tend to be mostly unbroken strings of eighth notes, which lends itself to a steady up-down hand motion. At least, that's what I see when I watch a fast break by Monroe, Skaggs, Bush, etc. Even when the tune might include a brief interruption in the melody line, they tend to "ghost pick" the missing notes and keep that hand moving in a steady pattern to keep the speed up. I know there are other ways to pick Bluegrass (Thile), but that seems to be a fairly standard method for going fast.

Playing Irish 'trad or Contra Dance tunes at a fast tempo doesn't work that way. You have to play the actual melody, including all the fits and starts, all the little quarter note pauses, triplets, and runs that make up the melody. It's not an unbroken string of eighth notes. The rhythms are also different from a steady mechanical 4/4 pulse too, even in a reel... at least, if the group is good enough not to steamroller reels so they all sound the same. So it can be tricky to play quickly.

With this style of music, I seem to make the most progress by just practicing the specific tunes over and over, getting them deep into brain/muscle memory so I can glide over any rough spots. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... maybe I'd make more progress by running scale and arp exercises to a metronome, but I think deep familiarity with the tune is at least a starting point for building speed with this style of music. Besides, practicing by playing tunes is a more fun than running scales. So that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[Rob Gerety]

Folded - so when you are playing a reel in a contra dance setting for example, you don't keep you hand moving consistently up and down with the rhythm and "ghost" pick over spot where no note is played? Could you elaborate a little? I've been basically doing exactly that. I do play the melody, straight ahead with out much improv if any - but I try to keep my hand moving steady up down. Even with a jig (6/8) I try to do a steady DUD DUD ghost picking where there is no note. I might emphasize different beats and sometimes I have do double time to throw in a triplet embellishment or something - but mostly I think I'm doing exactly what you describe as being different in the Bluegrass setting. Not sure I understand what is different - other than the fact that there is probably a lot more improv going on in the Bluegrass stuff.

[JeffD]

You have to play the actual melody,


deep familiarity with the tune is at least a starting point for building speed with this style of music.

yes yes yes

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Yep, for Irish music, it's all about the tunes themselves--they are the practice etudes, no need for scales and arpeggio practice.

But on mandolin, I tend to fill in those dotted quarter notes with picked triplets, melodic variations, etc., so my pick is always moving. I play Irish on mando much as I used to on tenor banjo. It's a steady stream of notes.

[bratsche]

But for fiddle, the wrist works more on the diagonal, and mando it's along the lateral axis of the forearm, so maybe I just need to train different muscles and nerve synapses.

Just wanted to unlurk to say I think that's it in a nutshell. My issues are very similar, though I didn't pick up a pick until I was past forty. I can play fast-ish, for a while, but never can seem to play as fast as my left hand could if only the right could keep up. But if I have to sustain a fast tempo for very long, my right forearm definitely tightens, causing me to slow down.

I even thought of starting a thread elsewhere, possibly oriented toward other people who began playing on bowed instruments, and looking to uncover how they managed to get their right hands to catch up with the left ones on their mando playing. I keep seeing the opposite sentiment expressed on these boards, though... that bowing is so much harder to learn than picking, which may be true, with all things being equal. Having had a bow in my hand since childhood, it is quite possible that I've taken it for granted. But I do think the two types of techniques involve entirely different muscle training.

bratsche

[farmerjones]

Speaking as a fiddler first, i do concur.

Kudos for unlurking bratsche!

With your added comments i'm seeing this in a new light.
When i can't do something i'm content to associate it within as apposed to without.

While we've not hit on a full-on solution, many heads are better than one.
That's the power of the forum. Cheers

[foldedpath]

Folded - so when you are playing a reel in a contra dance setting for example, you don't keep you hand moving consistently up and down with the rhythm and "ghost" pick over spot where no note is played? Could you elaborate a little? I've been basically doing exactly that. I do play the melody, straight ahead with out much improv if any - but I try to keep my hand moving steady up down.

No, my right hand tends to pause where the melody line pauses. I know that probably isn't very efficient, but it's just what feels right for me. In our trio, I play a lot of unison melody with the fiddler. I try to get into the groove of what he's playing, and it's not exactly like the steady pulse of a Bluegrass band. It swings and flows, even when moving pretty fast. Trying to keep a steady, repetitive hand motion going all the time gets in the way of following the bow. At least, it does for me... YMMV, etc.

But on mandolin, I tend to fill in those dotted quarter notes with picked triplets, melodic variations, etc., so my pick is always moving. I play Irish on mando much as I used to on tenor banjo. It's a steady stream of notes.

I'm still working on ornaments. I'm getting to the point where I can start throwing in some triplets and hammers/pulls on jigs, slides, and hornpipes, but having the facility to flick 'em in on a fast reel is still beyond me. I envy what fiddlers can do with ornaments at those speeds.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

" I envy what fiddlers can do with ornaments at those speeds." (FoldedPath)

Yeah, the constant note supplied by the bow creates wonderful opportunities for the left hand to do twiddly bits that don't just die off the way they would on mandolin. I love the cuts, rolls, cranns, and other twiddlies I can do on fiddle--all very nuanced yet effective ways to articulate and vary the timing and create lift and pulse in the music.

Because I've done that on fiddle for 30 years, I'm drawn to as much of the same sound as I can get on mandolin, which mostly happens with hammer ons, pull offs, and picked triplets, at least for Irish music. In that regard, old timey and bluegrass are somewhat easier to play (no picked triplets needed), and I find the slides and doublestops very satisfying.

Have to say--playing on a high quality mando with good response, volume, and sustain makes a big difference in what you can do to articulate notes, play with the timing and rhythm, etc.

If my biggest obstacle is simply developing the muscle and nerve response laterally for picking that I already have diagonally for bowing, then I'm on it! The basic development should take about 4 to 6 months. I can *do* that.

So I'm shooting for 122-126 bpm feeling smooth and "easy" by August (I'm at 108-112 bpm now). I'll post another thread then to report on whether I made that goal or not, and what specific drills, concepts, techniques helped or hindered in getting me there.

Thanks for all the input and thoughtful suggestions!

[JonZ]

I am picturing a mechanical, rigid glove that is adjusted to the proper speed, angle and range of motion that one could wear throughout the day, training one's nervous system in the proper response. One could wear it while watching TV, at a business meeting, or while out on a date, and improve one's picking technique at the same time.

"Far fetched!" you may be thinking, but this is akin to the therapies used to teach people with neurological damage to use their limbs again.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Not so much "far fetched" as rife for shocked glares and "What is that man doing in public?!?!?!"

Definitely not a device to wear at the movies, say, or in mixed company.....

[Rob Gerety]

I have never played a bowed instrument. I have played guitar, fingerstyle and flat pick. I am new to mandolin and for the first time trying to focus a bit on speed. My sense is that when I start bumping up against my current speed limit it is my left hand that I am struggling with, not my right. When I have made progress it is because I have focused closely on my fretting movements and lightened my touch some. I know this has been focused on right hand issues - but do any of you fiddlers - or others - have tips for increasing speed and coordination of the fretting hand? Coming from guitar it took me a little while to get used to the fiddle style angle of attack which is quite different. I think I have that down reasonably well - certainly improvement is still possible. I think I have lightened up my touch quite a bit and I do pretty well getting good position next to the fret with my finger tip. I might play with my fingers a little on the flat side - not arched as much as some folks - not extreme mind you. My perception is that I just don't get my fingers off notes quickly enough sometimes. My plan is just to continue with the standard scale work using a metronome to inch my way up. But any other suggestions sure would be appreciated. I am not at the speed you folks are. Jigs, yes. But not reels. I'm out of my true relaxed zone when I hit 100. So I would say 90 or 95 is pretty much max for me right now - although it does vary, sometimes quite a bit, with the tune.

[Mandoblab]

Bratsche,

Having come to mandolin from many years of classical violin training, it is so VERY frustrating to have the left hand skills, but not the right hand skills to keep up.

Farmerjones is right: bowing is second nature and I'm sure we fiddlers simply take it for granted. But picking is the bane of our existence. What really drove me nuts is that day when the guitar player in my rock band asked to try out my mandolin and could easily play 50% faster than me. Arrrrrgh!

I think I would have been better off starting the mandolin journey with two stupid hands that could learn together, rather than one that was easily able to outdistance the other in a mandolin footrace. A separate thread for us "fiddle-impaired" mando players might be helpful. Or perhaps, a support group..........?

Mandoblab

[f#54]

A separate thread for us "fiddle-impaired" mando players might be helpful. Or perhaps, a support group..........?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=109

maybe?

[Rob Gerety]

Might also need one for "reformed guitar players". Different problems I guess. The thought of learning how to bow well has pretty much put me completely off any notion that I might learn to play fiddle. Of course, the lack of frets would also be a major issue.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Rob, I don't know how helpful this will be, and I'm sure you already know most of this, but here are some left-hand insights based on a lifetime of playing fiddle and decades of teaching.

You're on the right track with the finger position--basically, you want your fingernails facing down the strings, toward the bridge. Doesn't have to be extreme, just angled that way more than across the strings.

Angled as above, the most efficient contact for your fingers on the strings is sometimes with the tip straight down onto the string (coming from a pretty good arch), and sometimes just slightly more onto the pad of the finger tip (less arch). The former is common enough; you can see a good example of the latter here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQhT726aM8E (the picker to the right on your screen).

Keep the pad of your thumb on the neck--sometimes on top (the upper side) of the neck, where the neck and fingerboard meet, sometimes more on the spine of the neck. In either case, the important thing is to not let the neck lapse into the crook where your thumb meets your hand.

You want your fingers to "hover" over the strings, never far above the fingerboard, except to wind up for a hammer-on. The lower your fingers are, the faster you can go.

Whenever possible, leave fingers down on lower frets when playing fingers on higher frets, particularly if the tune takes you back to those lower frets.

Play lots of folded scales in all the common keys (e.g., |GABG ABcA|BcdB cdec| etc.), picking them, and also fingering them without picking. Some people find they can gain finger speed by concentrating on just the left hand while giving the pick hand a rest.

Isolate and woodshed on the tricky bits of tunes. A good example for the ring and pinky is: Key of G |:dgbg agbg|dgbg ageg|dgbg agbg|dedc BGBc:| Lather, rinse, repeat.

Drill on the little patterns that crop up in so many fiddle tunes. For example:
|:dBGB =cAFA:|
|:dfge fedf:|
|dfed BcdB:|
|:FGAF GFEG:|
|:dfeg fage:|
etc.

Of course, play these patterns on each pair of strings, not just the ones shown here.

Do some triplet runs with hammer-ons and pull-offs starting with the ring finger and using the pinky on the 7th fret. A good finger warm up is:
|3GAG (3FGF (3EFE (3DED:|
Again, do it on every string.

Despite all the drills above, I mostly play the tunes themselves for "practice," but some tunes are better than others for refining left-hand skills. Some of my personal favorites:
Swinging on a Gate
Cuckoo's Nest (with no quarter notes)
Arkansas Traveler
Whiskey Before Breakfast
Paddy Fahy's version of Never was Piping so Gay
Fisher's Hornpipe (with no quarter notes)
Eileen Curran (an Irish reel in Gdor)
Woodchopper's Reel
Cherokee Shuffle
Jerusalem Ridge
Sweeney's Buttermilk

It also helps to tackle some really tough piece, well outside your comfort zone. It will make everything else you play feel easier by comparison, and that's a significant victory. :-) I like to use Tommy's Tarbukas for this, and Loftus Jones in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd position.

If you're not familiar with them, you can find abcs and sheet music for all the Irish tunes I listed at www.thesession.org.

Hope this helps.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

P.S. Also, it's essential to let your fingers fully relax when they're not holding the note currently being played. This applies whether the finger is on a string or hovering. Even at your fastest pace, there are moments between each note where you can rest and relax. When you do this, tension goes away and the fingers can dance.

[Rob Gerety]

Thank you!

[Andy Fielding]

Want to know the truth? You already know how to play fast. You just have to let yourself do it.

You can't possibly do something as subtle as playing fast notes by consciously controlling it. You don't even know how many muscles are in your hands—how could you possibly "control" a whole whack of them at the same time, in such subtle ways? You can't. It's vanity.

Your progress will come not from "trying" to play faster, but from getting out of your own way, by feeling and listening, and by letting your body do what it already knows how to do without your "help".

Instead, practice letting go of your attachment to developing technique for the sake of technique, impressing people, and so on. Just focus on the beauty of the music. Listen to each note that comes out of your instrument, instead of focusing on how quickly you can get it over with so you can rush to the next one. It's a miracle to play even one note, much less a whole bunch of them. Then the music that comes out of you and your instrument will be the music you really want to play, not the music you think you need to play.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Wow, Andy that's just so off the mark I don't know where to begin.

I'm not in this to do technique for technique's sake, or to impress anyone, not even myself. As I said above in this thread, I enjoy the music I play very much as is, I just want to be able to play comfortably at common dance tempos for the types of music I play.

You might want to count to ten and reconsider before ascribing motivations and attitudes to people you've never met.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

I found this little nugget particularly offensive:

"...instead of focusing on how quickly you can get it over with so you can rush to the next one."

Really? Pray tell where you got that notion from?
No, don't bother. Please.

[Pete Hicks]

I have noticed that shifting positions hasn't been addressed. I had a tendency to slow down or rush during shifts from one position to the other, such as first to third position. To remedy this, I have been making it a point to really practice these position shifts. A side benefit was the realization that some melodies are easier to play in different positions. Part one of Leather Britches, for example, is much easier in 3rd position than in 1st.
When playing really fast, I use open strings to shift. It gives a very smooth sound, and the shift itself is inaudible.

[JeffD]

One thing I have noticed about this topic. There are two different points of view, the view of those not happy with their speed, and the view of those who have achieved a speed they are comfortable with.

The difference is that those who have achieved a speed they like, often, look back and don't remember how it happened, or that they did anything beyond sack loads of hours playing and practicing. It is almost Star Wars like, you know, trusting the force and all.

Those who have not as yet achieved the speed they want, often, look for that magic bullet, that coffee additive that will make it happen. The benzedrine in the Ovaltine. I guess there are things that make step increments in speed, early on switching from down-down-down-down to down-up- down-up was a revelation to me, and later, leaving as many fingers on the fret board as possible really helped, and there are others, and perhaps after experiencing these one is tempted to think that some other technique or hand hold, finger position, slick pick, or stance, that will "do the trick" and get us the rest of the way.

Each point of view has some basis in experience. What particularly amuses me is the "speedy" players who forget their own search for the magic bullet so many playing hours ago. We give up looking for it, just put in the hours, and then one bright day someone asks us to slow down and we say "what huh?"

There are also those who play quite well, in any objective measure, but are still looking for that speed thing. (I have heard that Jethro Burns said he always wanted to play faster, because it increased the number of people he could play with.)

[farmerjones]

i think it would be nice to have a little mp3 link on everyone's profile, so you could hear how everybody sounds. Good, bad or ugly. Everybody's in some stage of growth. I think it would really add something.

[JonZ]

i think it would be nice to have a little mp3 link on everyone's profile, so you could hear how everybody sounds. Good, bad or ugly. Everybody's in some stage of growth. I think it would really add something.

Yeah, and I probably wouldn't talk as much smack if people knew how bad I actually play.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Jeff, that's how I feel on fiddle--after 30 years, it's rare to run into anything that feels tricky or hard. And I have to stop to really think when someone asks me to explain how I bow a certain phrase, etc.

That's part of what's so frustrating for me on mandolin--I can analyze and explain what I do on fiddle and offer all sorts of fingering and bowing ideas that incrementally improve anyone's abilities, but I haven't found anyone that can do the same with flatpicking, particularly on mandolin. So I'm developing my own set of woodshedding exercises (almost all based on tunes). Not just for me, but for my students, too.

I *am* making progress on the speed issue, just slower than I hoped. Shouldda kept with it when I was younger....