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Thread: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

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    Registered User Travis Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    Cafe, I was originally criticized for going off-topic on another compression-related thread, but I would like to continue the discussion. I have started with excerpted comments/questions from the previously mentioned thread.

    Tim Bowen comment: I'm not at all a fan of compressors with mandos that include eight strings and unison courses (compressor is a sonic nightmare on the low G course at stage volumes, in my opinion) - but for your instrument, some subtle compression might indeed be a nice add.

    Tim, can you elaborate on your comment about how the compressor is a "sonic nightmare" on the lower G-course? Perhaps it I fail to truly understand compression, but it would seem to me that compression would balance the response of the strings. For example, if I have a radius on my bridge to match the fretboard, then the G and E course would be closer to the magnetic poles of the pick-up. The compressor would work to balance the response between strings by clipping excess gain. Is this correct? If it is I would think a compressor, or at least a compressor in front of an EQ would only help with the lower G-course. Help me understand.

    Travis, I base my comments upon playing electric-acoustic mandolins in a variety of real world situations at stage volume, for better or worse. As amplified and/or boosted/compressed, the low G course of an A/E mandolin hates any sort of low mids bump; in fact, it's a recipe for sonic disaster. It "blooms" too much.

    It's different with something like a high fidelity Urei LA2A limiter. It's even different with something like a Menatone JAC stomp, which is based on the classic Urei circuit. The thread pertains to stompbox comps, most of which are electric guitar-specific. Most guitar comp stomps bump mids and roll off highs, which is great for something like a Fender Telecaster through a tube amp. However, ROSS and BOSS mids-bumped compression circuits are a no-go with A/E mandolins, in my opinion and experience. I use a Keeley two knobber comp stomp for live, which is probably the best compromise stomp that I've found for my multi-instrument/DI/PA acoustic-electric needs. Nonetheless, low mids remain a factor of choice with A/E mandos; they hate a bump in this regard.

    Just my opinion.
    Thanks,
    Travis

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    Registered User Travis Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    Tim, thanks for your attempt to educate me.

    I am curious then about compression stomps with built in tone control such as the Diamond Pedals Compressor and the Visual Sound Comp 66. I am sure there are others out there as well. The Diamond Pedals box has a tilt EQ with the midpoint set at roughly 1000Hz; this is a decided shift toward the treble end of the sonic spectrum. The Visual Sound box pedal has a tone control that most likely operates by way of boost/cut. Have you tried a stomp with an associated tone control? What are your thoughts about something like this?

    To correct the low-mid boggle, have you ever played around with a post-compression EQ stomp?
    Thanks,
    Travis

    2006 Weber Gallatin, 1984 Flatiron 2MW, Wendler #194, Schwab #177

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    Well, here's my take on it, for what it's worth. I use a little compression when mixing or mastering a recording. It's a very useful tool there, although it shouldn't be overdone for an acoustic genre recording.

    For live sound though, it's very easy to get into trouble with compression. Of all the possible effects, it's the most difficult to understand and the easiest to abuse, unless you've been working with audio for a long time and are very familiar with what compression can and can't do.

    You could try using compression as a band-aid to fix something like unequal string response on an instrument. However, in my experience this is never as good as going right to the root of the problem and fixing it there with a better setup, or a better pickup, or just a better instrument that doesn't have that particular problem.

    Something else to keep in mind, is that every decibel of compression is a decibel less in gain before feedback. Adding compression is the best way I know to trigger runaway feedback with acoustic instruments, especially if microphones are being used.

    I'll also echo the comments from the other thread about stomp box compressors. They're designed for electric guitar, and generally sound like #$%& on acoustic instruments. If you're going to use compression at all on an acoustic instrument, it should be a sonically transparent one, which basically means expensive rackmount gear.

    I don't think compression is completely useless in live sound. If I was running a mix from front-of-house and not playing in a band, I might add a little compression here and there to help different instruments or vocals sit in the right pocket. That's assuming I had separate compressors for each channel, which is already getting into major pro mixing board territory, not the mixers I'm guessing most of us here are using. But it's very difficult to do this while also playing in a band, and running your own sound from the stage. I don't want to mess with it, while also playing and only keeping half an ear on the sound of the PA. And I would only trust a sound person to use compression at FOH if they really knew what they were doing with it.

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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    I'm a compressor junkie, and have two 7-foot-tall racks full of old tubey units that I love dearly...

    And I can honestly say that the mandolin is probably the one instrument that I never compress...

    There's just something about a compressor/limiter on a mandolin that doesn't work for me...

    Yeah, I'll lightly compress a final mix, but as far as compression on an individual instrument, the mando goes into the final mix as naked as a jaybird...

    YMMV...

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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    I'll add a third affirmation to what folded path and spruce are saying. In general, I believe this is a technical issue of tone that mostly plays out in how one feels about one's live sound onstage as opposed to in the studio.

    I sometimes add a tiny amount of low bandwidth compression while mixing down acoustic mandolin in a recording. It adds a distinctive bass pop, which translates into a pronounced attack and slightly extended decay. It works OK as a modulating tool to create something new sound-wise, by directly muddying the acoustic ambience. For a commercial example of this kind of modulation, take a listen to what Daniel Lanois does with different stringed instruments on his Emmy Lou Harris production.

    I have a feeing that both Spruce and FoldedPath are on the same page as me, when I say I REALLY like the sound of my acoustic instrument. It is simply a joy to be playing and listening to it at the same time. The reason I wouldn't want to add compression to my live set up, is that such a clear-sounding acoustic instrument lets an experienced player keep control of the clarity and tone at all volumes and all speeds. In other words, a lot of what goes into playing well has to do with controlling dynamics.

    Add a compressor and you are giving up that multi-functional control over dynamics for some preset level of just one synthetic dynamic. That's why, in the recording world, Compressor plugins live in a folder called "dynamics". Guitar compressors work well to provide that Mark Knopfler click to each note on a electric guitar, which is "solid body" precisely to attenuate acoustic overtones and help focus the tonic. Add the same compressor to an 8 string acoustic instrument, and the wild diversity of acoustic overtones transmutes rich acoustic tone to one-dimensional mud as you increase compression.

    I know that Folded Path favors a gooseneck condenser on his mandolin. I use a Schertler for much the same reason. One might think of both these amplification solutions as the anti-compressor, because they optimize acoustic transparency.
    Explore some of my published music here.

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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    Great thread discussion. Truthfully, I've never heard mandolin through a compression device. Some instruments might benefit by compression but I don't think the mandolin is one of them unless I hear it and like it, or unless it's required for some studio work.

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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Poener View Post
    Great thread discussion. Truthfully, I've never heard mandolin through a compression device. Some instruments might benefit by compression but I don't think the mandolin is one of them unless I hear it and like it, or unless it's required for some studio work.
    Go have a listen to Steve Earle's "The Mountain", with Del McCoury Band...

    I haven't listened to it awhile, but the whole thing is just compressed to the max, and I think you'll be able to hear it on the mandolin....

    I kinda like the effect overall, but I do remember thinking the mandolin sounded odd...

    I asked Ronnie what he thought of that CD, and the first thing he said was "it's kinda over-compressed"...

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    Registered User Dr. Jazz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    Gotta agree with everything I read here. I almost never compress instruments like the mando, unless they are such evil sounding things that no EQ can cure them. Then I might mess with them a little to take off an edge. I don't do recordings, only live sound. So I can only speak to a live mix.
    The Acoustic Guitar http://www.acousticguitar.net
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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Compression--in depth (attn Tim Bowen, et. al.)

    "Pick click" is the sound of a plastic triangle hitting those tight double pairs of mandolin strings. It's an unwanted sound that most mandolin players spend time learning to minimize by the way we hold the pick, the pick shape, and the amount of pick that actually makes contact with the strings. I've always regarded pick click as an annoyance, not much different than the similar annoyance of not making solid contact with the strings and getting a squelched note. I have worked hard to eliminate both of these undesired sounds through practice. I'll never get it perfect, which is why practice never ends.

    Pick click is even more obvious a problem confronting players of solid body electric mandolins that use magnetic pickups. These pickups are placed right below where pick makes contact with strings. A hard picking player accentuates the percussiveness of the strike which booms out far more strongly than the actual notes being played. I can imagine some arguing that this noise possesses musical value because it makes a vamp, a bark, a woof, even more percussive. I used to play a lot of electric mandolin, and the percussive attack only became satisfying after I finally learned to use a VERY light touch with a pointy and thin pick.

    The thing compressors do best is boost attack. By performing this job, they also become amplifiers of pick click, in an inverse ratio with increasing lightness of touch. If you pick heavy, a compressor will amplify the click a little. Pick light and it will amplify the click a lot. By doing their job, they essentially accentuate the same annoyance we spend so much practice time to eliminate.
    Last edited by Jim Nollman; Jan-01-2010 at 10:59pm.
    Explore some of my published music here.

    —Jim

    Sierra F5 #30 (2005)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

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