Hand carving: What's the deal?

[Andy Fielding]

I've enjoyed reading about these revered, painstaking luthiers who turn out one or two mandolins a month, keep long wait-lists, and get big bucks for their instruments' divine tone and beauty.

And so they should. It's fascinating, admirable stuff.

But I've got to ask: Here in the 21st century, we have laser scanners and computer-controlled carving machines that can reproduce virtually any 3D shape with greater-than-human precision. (You can even get home models.)

So, romance and status aside, what is still the big deal about something like hand-carving archtop instruments? Why would precisely scanned and computer-carved tops and backs sound any different from those dug out with chisels and sandpaper? We're talking math here, right, not magical incantations?

(Okay, there's the whole tap-tuning thing... But I understand some pretty good luthiers don't bother with it or even believe in it. It's even been discussed here.)

Thanks for humoring (and maybe educating) me.

P.S.: I considered posting this in the Builders' section—but I didn't want to seem like a wet blanket, or get any bricks through my windows. ;?)

[Hans]

Go buy a Collings. It's tricked out with CNC's at every turn of the build.

[extramusical.com]

Hand carving is an art and if not done right is of little value. But when done right ads the tone and resonance not found in machined top, back and sides.

If you can imagine sanding and shaping a piece of wood about 1/8th of an inch thick by hand, you can tell the natural characteristics of the wood.

Something more valuable than hand carving is the use of shed dried woods.

Starting a new thread on that topic now.

[Big Joe]

A machine can only do what it is programmed to do...nothing more. When you get to wood, it is different from piece to piece. Hand carving allows the luthier to work each piece of wood to get his/her optimal tone goal from that individual piece of wood. Computers and machines can put out the exact same carving all the time...but it can't tap a piece of wood for tone or response. It can't feel, look, hear the nuances of that particular piece of wood to get just exactly what that luthier wants.

If you want an instrument that can be done the same over and over and over, then look at the lesser expensive pac rim mandolins. The tone and playability you get from that instrument is what you would get from us luthiers relying on computers and machines determining the output of our carving. Hand carving may sound a bit romantic and outdated, but until there truly is a way for a machine.....that is affordable and readily useable for the luthier.....they must be hand carved to achieve the goal that luthier is striving for.

Now, machines are used for much of the most time consuming and difficult part of the work. Most of us use machines of some sort to achieve a certain point and then take it by hand from there. Some have some fairly sophisticate CNC machines, some use duplicarvers, some buy blanks rough cut, and some will still do it all by hand. We just obtained a carving machine which will help us so much as we begin producing some more mandolins. I am truly excited to have the machinery to help us finally get to where we can produce a limited amount of mandolins and other instruments in our shop. While we could easily buy parts already carved, we choose to do our own from blocks of wood.

In addition, many of us really enjoy working with the wood and the smell of the wood, and the feel of the wood, and seeing what our hands can do with those pieces of wood and the outcome that comes from the care we put into it. There truly is a sense of accomplishment when you start with a few pieces of board and after doing what we do a wondrous isntrument appears. That is a sense of accomplishment many never get to feel. Hopefully that answers your question.....from my perspective! .

[Rolfe]

Well, Andy, if we knew where you are in Canada, Hans and I might be able to set up a crossfire of bricks, but we are too nice to do that. You are 95% right in your position. The other 5% is the variable qualities of each piece of wood that demand individual attention. Even adjacent pieces from the same tree have different qualities. I carve my top and back plates on a CNC to within a millimeter of their final dimensions, but what I do by hand with that final millimeter is what makes it a fine mandolin instead of just a so-so mandolin. That's what you pay for, aside from romance and reputation.

[250sc]

OK, set up the CNC to cut every top to exactly the same specs. The problem can be that one piece of wood might be stiffer than another so results can vary.

That doesn't mean that hand carving will turn out a better instrument. A good builder who hand carves can though.

I did what Hans suggested and bought a Collings. I have access to lots of mandolins and it provided the best bang for the buck for me.

[JEStanek]

My thoughts as a biologist go along the lines of, if wood were a uniform medium and not the product of a living thing that went through different seasons and cycles the CNC would be all you would ever need. However, again my belief, the nuances in the wood benefit more from having a builder work with them to bring out the full potential of the sound (same with shaping tone bars). There are no spells cast nor magic used, just skill and experience that comes from carving many plates and listening and feeling the work. I believe it is much more than just math and map plans (though they are an excellent place to start). Perhaps its similar to cooks who follow recipes exactly with no variation vs cooks who use taste and intuition... You can get a bowl of soup either way.

I believe you can get good results using a CNC and some hand work to fine tune the plates (Rigel, Collings, even some small shop builders machine out much of the work). They are different approaches to a similar goal, to make a mandolin. Some do either better than others. I think it is unrealistic to say one method is always superior to another, it depends upon the wood and the skill and experience of the builder. I think it makes a bigger difference in lower end (sub $1500) import mandolins between pressed tops (evein if solid wood) and a carved or hand carved top in the quality of the sound you get out of the instrument.

You might be better able to answer the question yourself by getting your hands on some instruments of all types and hear them played by and at you to determine which sounds the best to you. Technology is great but, it isn't always a better solution.

Jamie

[Dale Ludewig]

No bricks from here. CNC has its place, but from my experience you must leave room for the human. Not necessarily tap tuning to a specific note, but a particular sound from a particular piece of wood. All pieces of wood are individuals. I don't think we'd want clones of some idealized human, whatever that might mean. CNC'ing everything with no alteration afterward would be fine if you wanted every instrument to sound the same. As a guy, happily married by the way, I wouldn't want every woman to look and act the same. And if you CNC'd every thing identically, you'd not get the same thing anyway because the raw material differs from piece to piece. So, there's a thought.

[Skip Kelley]

No bricks from here. CNC has its place, but from my experience you must leave room for the human. Not necessarily tap tuning to a specific note, but a particular sound from a particular piece of wood. All pieces of wood are individuals. I don't think we'd want clones of some idealized human, whatever that might mean. CNC'ing everything with no alteration afterward would be fine if you wanted every instrument to sound the same. As a guy, happily married by the way, I wouldn't want every woman to look and act the same. And if you CNC'd every thing identically, you'd not get the same thing anyway because the raw material differs from piece to piece. So, there's a thought.

Dale, Well said!

[Dale Ludewig]

My oh my, a nerve must have been hit. Look at the timing of the last few messages. We were all writing at the same time.

[SchlazzGraft]

I'd say a lot of the reason they haven't switched over to machines is for tradition! I'm sure luthiers take pride in their ability to carve a mandolin totally from hand, just like it was done back in the day. and after that, people like knowing that their new instrument (even if its from asia) is still built in a similar fashion they have been for years. There's definitely a demand for the hand-carved instruments, so people will keep making them. I'm not sure if machine carved would catch on in this industry! (at least not yet)

[BradKlein]

Go buy a Collings.

Very good point contained in Hans' quip. Small and medium manufacturers (like Collings) are able to make an outstanding product with 21st century machinery -- and the vast majority of players take advantage of the fact. It's become a truism that 'we live in a golden age of luthiery', mostly in reference to the high end instruments being made in small shops.

It may be that the best handmade instruments of today rival the finest of the past... but it is a sure thing that the economical instruments of today, are vastly better than their counterparts in the early 20th c.

[Chris Baird]

Perhaps its similar to cooks who follow recipes exactly with no variation vs cooks who use taste and intuition...
Jamie

A very good analogy. The key to working with variable materials and subjective notions of good tone is to constantly evaluate the individual parts and how they will work as a whole through the build process. This can be done (or not done) whether one builds with teeth and fingernails or sophisticated machines.

What makes a good builder, whether in a factory setting, or, individually, is that the builder understands what a good instrument sounds, looks, and plays like, and finds "handles" on their build process that allows them to account for variations in material qualities.

This can, to some degree, be reversed as well. As in a builder strikes on a good build process, arching, graduations, etc. for particular materials and then goes to great lengths to obtain the right materials. In reality it becomes a bit of both.

Happy Holidays

[Dan Margolis]

There's a lot of hands-on work at Collings, too. It is not just about the machines.

[Big Joe]

When mandolins began coming from the orient they were pretty poor quality, and as they learned to machine them better the structural quality improved. They still sounded pretty much like junk. Part of the reason that has changed is they have begun to learn to play the instruments and udnerstand the sounds they produce. The scary thing is they have the manufacturing and labor pool willing to work for a very low wage compared to ours and can produce an instrument for a very low price. If you had any idea what some companies pay for the import product it would give you a heart attack. We can't buy the parts for what they get a completed instrument...including shipping! That aside, the chinese have come a very long ways because the music is becoming a part of thier lives as well. In addition, some of them have the oversite of American luthiers who do know not only the manufacturing, but also the music and how the instruments should sound. I have maintained for a long time that once they understood the instruments and music American manufacturing of stringed instruments could well be in trouble.

The chinese can build a very good fiddle. They can build an incredible guitar. The are beginning to do the same with banjos, and we are not very far from them achieving the quality in mandolins that will startle many. They have already come a very long way with the Eastmans, better Kentucky's, The Loars, and a couple newer ones I've seen and heard recently. Within a decade the product and quality of mandolin and tone will improve greatly and it may well alter the face of luthiery in our country. It may not affect the small builders, but it will certainly challenge the factory made instruments. I don't thnk any of the larger factories are going to be imune to the onslaught of the pac rim better quality instruments. The American factories are certainly already looking at how to refine the products they produce and invent a new market to stay competitive. The future in not necessarily dim, but certainly different. I still love my American made products, and chose to buy American any time I can, but the days of a nationalistic economy are quickly becoming challenged. Just my opinion, for whatever it is worth.

[yankees1]

A very good analogy. The key to working with variable materials and subjective notions of good tone is to constantly evaluate the individual parts and how they will work as a whole through the build process. This can be done (or not done) whether one builds with teeth and fingernails or sophisticated machines.

What makes a good builder, whether in a factory setting, or, individually, is that the builder understands what a good instrument sounds, looks, and plays like, and finds "handles" on their build process that allows them to account for variations in material qualities.

This can, to some degree, be reversed as well. As in a builder strikes on a good build process, arching, graduations, etc. for particular materials and then goes to great lengths to obtain the right materials. In reality it becomes a bit of both.

Happy Holidays

From what I have read , Old Wave mandos built by Bill are very consistent from instrument to instrument in tone. Correct?

[Dale Ludewig]

My point. A good builder can take different pieces of wood and make an instrument that sounds like "his/ her sound". Arching is of much importance. Once that's done, graduations are critical and to my knowledge, no machine can do the final stuff.

[GRW3]

The need to 'hear the voice into a top by hand carving' is accomppanied by a second key factor 'culture influenced hearing'. That is 'what sounds right' is impacted by the culture in which you are raised. The top domestic builders, in every size category, have a distinct hearing advantage in building an instrument domestic use. The exceptions prove the rule.

[toddjoles]

I'm hobby building right now, I hog out by hand. If I ever build full time, I'll build a pantograph to speed up the process. If I had a production factory with employees, I would have CNC to hog out, cut pearl (LASER?) and do headstock routing etc...

Roughed out by hand, with a pantograph or with a CNC the only difference in the piece of wood is the time it takes to produce the blank. All the final work, the work that matters, is by hand anyway. I would love a CNC but the cost is prohibitive for me. Also my shop and many other one man shops don't have the space for one.

The Gibson factory used a pantograph of some type for their tops and backs and no one questions the quality of their work. If it was good enough for Lloyd Loar and Guy Hart, why wouldn't it be ok for the rest of us? Didn't they set the standard?

[Ivan Kelsall]

A friend of mine over here in the UK & fellow 'Cafe member' is currently building an A-5 Mandolin & busy carving the back.He's already spent 6 + hours of hard graft chiselling it out of VERY hard Maple. If he had a CNC router,that time could be vastly reduced. But as several folk above have pointed out,there has to be an amount of wood left for hand carving to the required thicknesses. CNC routing is a very useful procedure & as Tony Ellis has found out thro.his 'other' business of producing highly precise inlays,can be profitable as well as labour saving. One thing not to overlook though.You either need to employ somebody to 'write' the programme for you,or learn to do it yourself. The other method would be to use a 'copy miller',which i think is the method used by Lynn Dudenbostel,where the machine can literally copy a pre-produced model & yield similar results,
Ivan

[Rolfe]

An example of the time saving with CNC: after the CNC does the inside of the top, all we do is sand it down to 150. We have jigs, based on that curvature, that machine sand the bottoms of the tone bars almost exactly to that curvature. It then takes 5-10 minutes of final hand fitting to get the tone bars right. The hand graduation graduation of the top takes place on the outside. We save at least a half hour in the fitting of the tone bars. An excellent mandolin CNC, BTW, can be had for $12-15K.

[Scott Crabtree]

"CNC'ing everything with no alteration afterward would be fine if you wanted every instrument to sound the same."

^^^After I read Jamie's post, I would reconsider the fact that as he said~ "My thoughts as a biologist go along the lines of, if wood were a uniform medium and not the product of a living thing that went through different seasons and cycles"

There are no two things in universe that are exactly identical to each other. Every piece and type of wood for that matter will all sound different, regardless.

Hand carving and the art of the luthier are hopefully gaining ground on tradition and hand-skill, rather than convenience and "uniform precision".

[labraid]

The big market is in exacting tone reproduction. Everyone's afraid to walk into a jam and sound different than the next guy. It's easy to capitalize on that fear.

One day you'll be downloading plans, feeding them to your CNC, and even the kit builders will have a tough time at it -- a CNC in the garage will not be a luxury, it will be the standard.

I am debating how much that is a good thing, as "the kids" will be shuffling their thumbs on the Xbox-10,000, pondering their usefulness in the universe, while Daddy spits out another creation on the barbie, only to sell it for a few dollars as the next guy has the same capabilities. Markets have a way of evening out, just like arms races.

Skills develop after an association with the basics. You can learn to solve a very complicated math problem without learning to add in your head, but you will never learn the intracacies of mathematics as a whole if you don't grasp the basics first.

Cheating is very profitable.

In the short term.

One will never learn the basics if one is obsolete before they even begin. We are the first generation to be brought up with CNC telling us "I can do it better". The social implications of this are far reaching. We have the Nuke, but we don't know what cancers it causes yet, we're just happy it's put us ahead for the moment.

People are most productive with productivity, but they are without a doubt more happy with happiness.

[delsbrother]

People are most productive with productivity, but they are without a doubt more happy with happiness.

What if you're happy being productive?

[jbennett451]

If we're discussing tech, why not go whole hog? Look at the work that NewMAD has been doing with carbon fiber? I can't say I love the aesthetic, but beyond that what's not to love with the stuff - sound's good as plenty of carved mandos, but (probably) a lot quicker to achieve and with more standardization.

Of course, then there's the feeling that, when you're pouring hours into playing something, someone else poured hours into making it...