Sanding for bass

[Nick Triesch]

Back in the 60's thousands of Martin D18's and D 28's were sanded for bass. It was the first thing you did when you bought a new or used Martin. I was wondering if the same process could be applied to a mandolin? Sand a bit off the top on the inside on the bass side. Maybe a bit on the tone bars as well. They are not really holding up the top anyway. I know this sounds crazy but if it was good enough for high end guitars why would it not work for high end mandolins? What do you think?

I don't really think it would hurt the value because there are so many old Martins out there that have been sanded. Maybe yours! Nick

[allenhopkins]

I think what you're referring to is "voicing," which involved shaving down the braces on those "overbraced" Martin dreadnaughts, as well as thinning the top, and fine-sanding the inside surfaces to produce more sound reflection and less sound absorption. I have a '57 D-18 that was "voiced," and it sounds very nice indeed. On the other hand, I have a '70 D-41, unvoiced, and it sounds good too, so...

Do the same for a mandolin? Well -- a carved-top mandolin is of unequal thickness in different areas of the top, and it's "graduated" the way it is for a reason. Changing the graduation of the top may give you a wholly different sound, not the one you're anticipating. You're reducing the structural strength of the top, which can be a problem in itself; check out all the early 20th-century Gibson carved-models with significant sinkage of the top arch. And if you have an f-hole instrument, it's not at all easy to do "voicing" working through the f-holes.

There are mandolin specialists -- I believe Randy Wood is one -- who have made a reputation for taking unresponsive carved-top mandolins, regraduating the top, and coming out with better-sounding instruments. Whether they remove the tops to perform this regraduation, I don't know. But I think it's a little more complex than just "sanding the top for bass." The type of response you get from your mandolin, is a function of much more than top thickness; it includes shape and location of soundholes, size and placement of braces and/or tone bars, plus of course the type of wood and finish used.

I'd shy away from any automatic or S.O.P. decision to thin the top of a mandolin, without taking it to an expert in the field. Plus, doing this would immediately void any manufacturer or dealer warranty the instrument might have. A lot of people blithely altered the tops of their Martin guitars, and weren't uniformly pleased with the result. A path to be trodden very cautiously, IMHO.

[Nick Triesch]

Thanks Allen, I'll leave it alone. I played a Prucha F5 at Old Time Music in San Diego yesterday and it had terrific bass. I just do not have the $6500 to buy it! You are one of the very few who know about "sanding" old Martin guitars! You must have a few years on you like me! Nick

[barry k]

Fairly easy to get your hand and part of your arm in a guitar soundhole, to carve down braces and sand whatever...tougher to do on a f hole mando. Taking the back off, removing the tone bars off the top, then carve and scrape away extra wood on the top and back ,if required ,would do the trick for an overly built mando. Ive heard tales of folks carving down the tone bars by going through the tailpiece hole, but never have seen it done, nor would I attempt it myself.

[fishtownmike]

As far as i know the soundbars which really are braces and not soundbars do add support to the mandolin top. In a violin it's a different story. These repairmen were doing more shaping of the braces of a martin and not sanding the inside of the soundboard. The seventies martins had two by fours for braces. These were used to cut down on martins life time warranty that came with all martin guitars...Mike

[allenhopkins]

...You are one of the very few who know about "sanding" old Martin guitars! You must have a few years on you like me! Nick

Yeah, quite a few: turn 66 next New Year's Eve.

I worked part-time for a few years for the late Eldon Stutzman, and for his son Dave, proprietors of Stutzman's Guitar Center here in Rochester. They were the local specialists in "voicing" guitars, and many a Martin and Guild had braces altered in their shop. But Eldon had some firm policies about the process: he would only voice used guitars, so that the "warranty to original purchaser" wasn't affected. He would only voice guitars that he owned (you couldn't bring in your guitar to have it voiced); he said since voicing was irreversible, and people didn't always like the changes it made, he'd offer it on instruments he had for sale, but not take others' guitars and alter them. And he would give out a "care sheet" with each instrument that specified what gauge of strings he recommended for the "weakened" tops of voiced guitars.

Always admired the way the Stutzmans stuck to those principles. I'm sure that there are a ton of mandolins out there that would benefit from expert regraduation of their tops. But I'd only put one in the hands of someone who could analyze it to determine if improvement was possible, and what could be done to achieve it -- and then had a track record of doing it, and satisfied customers to whom I could refer. In many ways, you're better off just trading "up" to a mandolin that has the sound you want, rather than trying to re-jigger your current instrument to sound better. Bridges, tailpieces, string types, and set-ups are all ways to upgrade without risking the structural integrity of the mandolin, or making changes that can't be undone.

[barry k]

I whole heartly agree with the policy of "Do no Harm", especially to a warranted instrument, But as with some name brands of mandolins made in the 60's and 70's that had, (have) top and backs 1/4 of an inch thick, regraduating certainly would not hurt it. 10 minutes with such mandolin and a hacklinger guage would proof it that something would need to be done. Set up is number one priority for an instrument that the owner thinks is not quite up to par, if that dont work...?? my guess would be a shopping trip.

[KanMando]

I realize this is a mandolin forum, but for some insight on voicing '70s era Martins, check out Bryan Kimsey's site:

http://www.bryankimsey.com/

Bob

[Big Joe]

Revoicing an instrument is not really a do it yourself project. There are techniques used to alter the tone of an instrument, but it is not as simple as just sanding a top or back. That will probably not get you the desired result and could likely ruin a good instrument. Someone who is experienced in this kind of work should examine your instrument and work with you to find out exactly what you want and what your mandolin (or guitar) can give you. While NO ONE can guarantee any tonal end result, some of us have been at this a long time and have a pretty good idea what to expect. Randy can certainly do the work, and there are several others on the cafe that can do that kind of work as can we. The thing is, is it better to alter your instrument or sell it and get one that will have what you want out front? It can be less expensive to use the money from your current instrument to get an instrument with the tonal properties you want.

That being said, it can be altered. Just don't forget that any guarantee of final tonal properties may not be very accurate. Nearly anything can be accomplished but it is important to know what you expect and how to translate that information to the luthier doing the work. Then you have a shot at getting what you want and then you have to consider if it is worth the expense and time you would have to wait. Some of the work may require finish touch ups and you want to be sure that is able to be done to your expectations as well.

Unless your mandolin is very high end or has some great sentimental value it is usually better to just get a different instrument. Just my opinion.