1890 J.A. Palm

[mikel]

This instrument was made in 1890 by the Boston, MA. maker J.A. Palm. To a layman's eye, it is in excellent condition. I have been unable to find information on the maker. Does anyone have knowledge they can provide? Or, where to possibly find information on a vintage mandolin maker? My twitter account is @MikeLowthorp Ph# 817/276-9090 eMail mikel@beatthebar.com

[allenhopkins]

The Mugwumps Index of American Musical Instrument Makers lists John A. Palm as building in Boston 1897-1904. A bit of Google searching yielded nothing else. Since your pic didn't post (at least my browser can't read it), can't make any educated guesses based on appearance.

[mikel]

Any idea as to the value of such an instrument? Visit for image

http://www.beatthebar.com/vintage%20mandolin.htm

[mrmando]

Looks fairly standard apart from having two nuts (?!). Not an excessively fancy instrument, from the looks of it. I would say it's worth less than $200, except that it appears to be able to float in midair with no visible means of support, so it might be worth more because of its levitational properties.

[allenhopkins]

The spittin' image of my Washburn mandola, with the alternate staves of maple and rosewood. I have seen these dark-light alternate bodies on instruments with a variety of nameplates, so my theory is that someone was building the bodies and selling them to various companies, who finished the instruments and put their names on them (See "stencil pianos" in the Goggan thread in this forum.)

I've never seen a mandolin with a "zero nut" before, so I wonder if that's Palm's contribution to mandolin originality? And, by the way, is it a mandolin rather than a mandola? What's the scale length? Reason I ask, is that Lark Street Music in NJ has a Ditson mandola with the same type body.

[Bob DeVellis]

Palm had an excellent reputation as a builder at the turn of the 20th century. I have some books on early Boston builders and I know that Palm is mentioned in at least one of them (Christine Merrick Ayars's volume from the 1930s). I'm mighty busy for the next week or so but I'll try to dig out some information if I have the chance. Despite Palm's skills, I concur that the instrument isn't worth a great deal. There were a lot of good builders around then who have no enduring reputation and whose names add essentially no value to instruments like mandolins. Demand for bowlbacks is pretty modest and what demand there is for older instruments tends to concentrate on better models from larger companies like Vega or Martin. So, the Palm won't put anybody's kids through college. But if you're interested in playing mandolin, it's probably a nice instrument. Given its age, it's likely to need work, which may cost more than its cash value but could yield a high-quality instrument that you could play and enjoy for a long time. As we've pointed out here before, lots of old bowl-backs have an inherent value as a musical instrument that exceeds their fair-market value as an investment or marketable piece of merchandise. This is likely such a a case. But the marketplace is the final judge.

[Bob DeVellis]

By way of an update, I had a chance to take a quick look at the Ayars book this morning. Ayars quotes A. J. Oettinger (best known as the inventor of the banjo tailpiece that bears his name but also a sales representative for the Elias Howe Company) as describing Palm as follows: "He was a Swede, and one of the best mandolin and guitar makers in Boston." Ayars goes on to note that his advertisements read, "Makers of high grade mandolins and guitars -- violins, zithers, banjos, strings and findings [I suspect this should be "fittings"] at lowest prices. Music instruction books. Repairing promptly attended to." In the late 1890s, his shop was located at 89 Court Street, Boston, an address previously occupied by violin maker James H. White. The Elias Howe Company (EHCo) was at 88 Court Street during that time. By1900, Palm had moved to 24 Tremont Row. Both these nearby parts of the city were in the thick of the instrument-makers' quarter. Burt Shattuck, a leading teacher and banjo builder shared space at 88 Court Street with EHCo, as did string maker H. Schindler & Company. Palm's Tremont Row address is the same as that of E. B. Schultz, who is also listed as a maker of guitars and mandolins. Fairbanks and Cole was also located on Court Street (until about 1890), as was flute maker Adolph Huttl and the John C. Haynes Company (until about 1891). Nearby Washington Street was crawling with piano makers.

Given the number of small outfits making instruments in Boston at the time and the number of apparent interrelationships among them, it's not surprising, perhaps, that individual builders from this era haven't risen to prominence. Guitars, mandolins, violins, and other instruments seem to have been largely commodities during this period with many fine builders turning out instruments that strongly resembled one another and conformed to classic designs. As the nineteenth century transitioned into the twentieth, some more distinctive mandolin designs (e.g., Howe-Orme, Lyon & Healy carved-top, Vega cylinder-back, Gibson carved-top) began to show up and the designs were patented. Consequently, they became associated with specific builders. Also aggressive marketing made brands like Lyon & Healy, Vega, and Gibson more widely recognized and sought after. But before that emergence, it seems that one mandolin from one source was pretty much the same as a similarly appointed mandolin from another source, in terms of overall quality and value. Of course it's hard, looking back, to know exactly what was going on then, but this is the impression I get from the information I've seen.

[Schlegel]

The spittin' image of my Washburn mandola, with the alternate staves of maple and rosewood. I have seen these dark-light alternate bodies on instruments with a variety of nameplates, so my theory is that someone was building the bodies and selling them to various companies, who finished the instruments and put their names on them (See "stencil pianos" in the Goggan thread in this forum.)

I've never seen a mandolin with a "zero nut" before, so I wonder if that's Palm's contribution to mandolin originality? And, by the way, is it a mandolin rather than a mandola? What's the scale length? Reason I ask, is that Lark Street Music in NJ has a Ditson mandola with the same type body.

I thought that looked like a ribbon or tied-on strap, not a zero fret?

Those alternating staves are present in ouds and lutes going back to the middle ages. It's a constant design, so I don't think there's any need to posit a single source. I do think parts were jobbed out all the time, though.

Kind of OT, but that Ditson is interesting.... usually Ditsons look like Martin (or someone being Martin-like) made them, but that mandola says Regal to me. The headstock has the typical Regal concavity, and the pickguard (though I know makers bought guards premade) is the same as a Jupiter that Regal made for Washburn to sell to department stores.

Mikel, can you post a pick of the headstock of the Palm mandolin just for my curiosity?

[allenhopkins]

J Palm guitar for sale at Bernunzio's; no photo yet, asking $3750.

[mikel]

go here for more detailed photos

http://www.beatthebar.com/PalmMandolin.htm

Cut and paste

[MikeEdgerton]

It probably has much more value as a family heirloom than it would have on the open market. A few hundred dollars would be a generous sale price.