Cello in bluegrass?

[Mike Bunting]

Wasn't the lady playing accordion with Bill Monroe his wife?

Twas his fiddle player's (Howdy Forrester) wife, Sally.

[Mike Bunting]

[journeybear]

Interesting thread. As usual, learning stuff I never knew. Accordion in bluegrass? Sigh ...

Just thought I'd mention two people who have pushed the envelope for cello - not bluegrass, but in the other direction, ie, rock: Cameron Stone, who used to play with the marvelous Donna DeLory when they called the duo "Bliss," and Nadia Lanman, who used to play with the amazing Heather Nova. Both of these muscians played acoustically and electrically, achieving an astounding variety of sonic textures and effects. They really opened my mind to the possibilites of the instrument in contexts I had not previously imagined.

(BTW, Donna's day job is one of the two featured dancers in Madonna's stage show, and her dad was a successful music producer, including much of Glen Campbell's golden era, as well as cowriting and producing the novelty hit, "Please Mr. Custer." Heather is, well, a super Nova, blessed with a truly astounding gift in her voice. No mandos, as far as I know. But no ones' perfect - close, though ... )

Then of course there's Virgil Starkwell's use of the instrument in a marching band:

[OKMike]

Journeybear,

love it, virgil cracked me up

Mike

[allenhopkins]

i've said this before: the reason many of us resist the idea of an accordion in a bluegrass band is not purism or fanatism as some would have it. it's just that some people don't like accordions.

Well, at least that's honest. I don't particularly enjoy "bluegrass accordion" either. But I don't claim to be the arbiter of what is or isn't bluegrass.

Some people posting on this thread apparently don't like cello. Fine. But don't tell me "it can't be bluegrass if it has a cello in it." It can be whatever it is, and you can like it or not.

There's a contention that the pre-Flatt, Scruggs, Wise, Watts editions of Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys weren't bluegrass -- I guess because they had a different banjo style (Stringbean, et. al.) Seems to me that whatever Monroe's band played was the "bluegrass" of the period. Listening to the old Columbia recordings, you can surely hear the roots of the later style. But, of course, you could say the same about listening to Mainer's Mountaineers or Snuffy Jenkins' Hired Hands.

A discussion of the pros and cons of a bluegrass band with a cello is one thing. Saying that there's a universally-accepted definition of what bluegrass is is something else. I think Mr. Monroe was, perhaps, less orthodox than his orthodox acolytes.

[Rob Gerety]

So, what do you think? This qualifies as "bluegrass" don't you think? This is a recent performance by Rushad Eggleston - of Crooked Still fame, with his new band - Tornado Rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR8Y8Lw3mEY

[journeybear]

.... I think Mr. Monroe was, perhaps, less orthodox than his orthodox acolytes.

That is often the case - those who follow an innovator often tend to attempt to recreate those innovations rather than strive to achieve their own. It's just as important to bear in mind the spirit of the innovation as the means with which it was achieved.

An example which received a bit of discussion on another thread is the required instrumentation for the IBMA Bluegrass Band Competition. The basic four-person lineup is bass, guitar, mandolin, and banjo. Any larger oufit needed the inclusion of these four plus whatever else - fiddle, dobro, accordion (not!). So according to them, fiddle is not a required instrument, regardless of how many bands have included it instead of mandolin or banjo. I know this is splitting hairs, and I have no idea how they arrived at their decision (surely involved compromise), but it does provoke thought. And it gives some credence to ralph johansson's contention that bluegrass didn't exist per se before Scruggs joined up. I don't agree, but it does make me go "hmmm ..."

BTW, accordion in a bluegrass band made me think that that would make it more like country ... and then I got to thinking how (so I heard) western swing developed partly from a tradition of German musicians in Texas, who played accordion .. and then I got to thinking how accordion has been used very differently in a great many types of music in a great many cultures all around the world ... and then I stopped thinking and got out my mandolin and soon began to feel a whole lot better ...

[sunburst]

Sure, that's traditional, almost all bluegrass banjo players wear a head-band!

<grins>

There's one in nearly every Stetson...

[allenhopkins]

I remember watching Buck White & the Down Home Folks on a TV show about bluegrass. Buck on mandolin, Jerry Douglas on Dobro, Buck's two daughters on guitar and bass fiddle. No banjo in sight. Sounded a lot like bluegrass to me, but I guess IBGMA wouldn't think so.

Monroe himself considered a fiddle as necessary in the Blue Grass Boys -- sometimes two fiddles, at least when recording. Most of the first generation bands had a fiddler; I guess Jimmy Martin didn't, when he worked with the Osbornes and later. When I think about bands that dropped the fiddle, Country Gentlemen and their descendants (Seldom Scene et. al.) always come to mind.

None of them had 'cello. There, I've conceded the point. Hey, doesn't Ronnie McCoury play mandola sometimes? Does the band stop being "bluegrass" when he picks it up?

[Mike Bunting]

If Pink Floyd had recorded Dark Side of the Moon with mando, banjo, acoustic guitar, doghouse bass and a fiddle, would it have been bluegrass?

[journeybear]

Didn't someone somewhere recently post a video of a band in Wizard Of Oz garb doing a bluegrass version of a song from DSOTM? Then there's Jim Broyles' avatar, some other British band gone bluegrass ...

[barney 59]

As great as those bands are, what makes you think it's bluegrass?

I saw the Monster Sting Quartet last night. Natalie Haas is a great cellist and Daryl is a man after my own heart-- surrounding himself with young pretty girls,--- I kept thinking of the old Robert Palmer video. It wasn't bluegrass and I'm sure that they wouldn't classify it as such themselves but Peter Rowan came out for one song=="Stoney Lonesome" and cello and all I'd consider that bluegrass. Peter on guitar lots of fiddles and the cello filling in the bottom --it worked really well. I was not however the best thing that they played last night.

[Mike Bunting]

Actually, I think there would be room for the cello in the right circumstances in the bluegrass music. I'd like the feel of a sostinato low range going on beneath the melody. Is it OK if I get back to discussing the original topic?

[journeybear]

Well, all right, maybe just this time ... but don't try to make a habit of it, OK?

And next time, say "Please!"

BTW, the question posed by the OP was not whether cello should be used in bluegrass, but how to use it - that is, arrange it - and also for string band, not necessarily bluegrass. Just sayin' ...

[Mike Bunting]

Well, all right, maybe just this time ... but don't try to make a habit of it, OK?

And next time, say "Please!"

BTW, the question posed by the OP was not whether cello should be used in bluegrass, but how to use it - that is, arrange it - and also for string band, not necessarily bluegrass. Just sayin' ...

Yeah, I like drony sounds so that's why I suggested having it playing lines below the melody playing long notes.

[journeybear]

Kind of what I was thinking, too, for slower songs, sad songs, waltzes too. Say "Dark As A Dungeon," "In The Pines." Not sure how well it would work on faster songs ... though of course, as with anything a little out of the ordinary, trial and error will be necessary. Another thing to consider is volume balance - cellos can get pretty loud.

[Jim Nollman]

Makes me curious if anyone has ever sampled any part of Bill Monroe's music to construct a groove. what do we call it? hiphopgrass?

[Wolfboy]

so, is there any use for a cellist in a stringband and how would you arrange that?

Submitted for your approval: Sam Bush's first solo album, Late as Usual, with Nancy Blake on cello on two tracks, demonstrating two possible roles for the instrument in a stringband context.

"Last Letter Home" is pretty much a slow bluegrass song in both style and instrumentation (although granted, there's no banjo). Personnel: Sam, mandolin and lead vocal; John Cowan, electric bass and tenor vocal; Curtis Burch, dobro; Norman Blake, guitar; Nancy Blake, cello. John's holding down the bass role so Nancy is free to create a soft sustaining countermelody that underscores the darkness of the lyric.

"Norman and Nancy", a Bush original (named in honor of guess who!), is more similar to the Blakes' Rising Fawn String Ensemble work, not surprisingly. Personnel: Sam, fiddle and mandolin; Nancy, cello and mandolin; Norman, guitar. Nancy fills more of a bass role here since the cello's the lowest pitched instrument on the track. It's got a nice old-time fiddle tune groove that the cello helps gently drive along.

As for precedent, have a look at this:
http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=276

That's not the New Lost City Ramblers in the picture, before anyone asks; it's an old photo they found somewhere and liked. Probably dates from around the 1930s.

[Gutbucket]

One of the most haunting performances I ever remember is of Bruce Molsky on fiddle and Rashad Englestrom on cello, playing old time fiddle tunes together at Mark O'Connors Fiddle camp in Tennessee a few years ago. You'd have to think somewhere in some old cabin in Appalachia, there might be a beat-up cello brought over from the old country that was played by the fire in the evening. It sounded great!

[MadMax]

I believe there is a cello in "My Last Days on Earth." I also think that Bill liked the sound and called it a "sello."

[JeffD]

As I mentioned in another thread, we had a cello in our OT and Northern jams at Lake Genero festival. It was really fantastic.

In one case the cello was playing melody and harmonies and it just filled out the whole sound. In another case it was a plucked cello - sort of a sit down bass.

It just works.


It is not listed in the IBGMA rules but it can really sound great.

[ralph johansson]

Twas his fiddle player's (Howdy Forrester) wife, Sally.

Wilene (Billy) "Sally Ann" Forrester joined the band when Howard F was drafted. The fiddler on the first Columbia Session was Chubby Wise.

[ralph johansson]

I believe there is a cello in "My Last Days on Earth." I also think that Bill liked the sound and called it a "sello."

There were in fact a string ensemble and a backing vocal group. Obviously this recording represented a complete and conscious departure from the BG formula, which involves head-arrangements and spontaneous interaction.


There is of course plenty of potential for a cello in an otherwise BG ensemble. But five already is quite a crowd and as soon as you introduce another instrument you'll have to drop one, re-distribute and restrict the roles of the instruments or work things out in greater detail. If I knew a good cellist I would go in the other direction and ask myself what to add to the cello and my guitar or mandolin. And forget about labels completely.

[John McGann]

Music doesn't care what you call it.

[AlanN]

The cello is probably the closest to the field of the 'not used for bluegrass music' out there. It is (usu.) not plugged in, is made of wood and strings, is mostly bowed, it resembles a fiddle or bass, and can be quiet. You just need to sit down to play it.

Now, if some wants the 'I Am The Walrus' groove, it can be done.