on loars:

[Jim Broyles]

Maybe those guys take that sort of question the way I take requests for tabs for three-chord bluegrass songs. Some people don't seem to want to put any effort into acquiring knowledge, they want the Cafe to open their heads and pour it in. I guess it can be annoying sometimes.

[300win]

Ok guys, I'm a simple man, maybe I asked the question in a less than appropiate way. Ok here goes, out of all these, sight, sound, playing a actual Loar, smell ?, what is the one thing that will jump out at you right from the sttart that you know you are holing the real deal ? Is it possible to answer that ? If not I'll shut up ang go annoy some other folks, by the way Scott very funny, and Tom I sure would like to take you up on that offer, as I have never to my knowledge at least, ever held a real Loar, and it would be an honor to see yours I believe living where you do that you and I might know some mutual folks in Bluegrass, Danny Bowers, L.W. Lambert, Herb Lambert, Danny Campbell, A.L. Wood ?, I used to see them ol boys a bunch picking around. But then again I might have, like I said 40 years ago when I was a youngin, I did get to hold and play several old Gibson F-5's, and I didn't even know what a Loyd Loar was back then, so it is possible I did hold one. Back in the late '60's early '70's at Bluegrass festivals there were a bunch of old instruments floating around. I can understand anybody's caution on even saying they have one. A case in point, many years ago I was at a outdoor fiddlers convention and had my dad's fiddle with me it was an "Old Bull", it was stolen, and I believe it was stolen by somone who knew I had it, as they left three other instruments in the car, but I've come to find out through the internet that that fiddle is worth over $7000 now. So believe me I do understand anyones cautious nature over something like this. If I've rubbed any of ya'll raw over this I apoligize.

[SternART]

Well said 300win!

BTW f-hole sniffing is a real thing among Loar Intelligentsia.

[Links]

I love reading these threads, as I enjoy talking about those wondeful old instruments and fakes. Although some of you will disagree, there is no doubt in my mind that a fake could be made that even the most knowledgeable expert (of which we have many here) would in all probability be fooled. Since all of the old Loars were handmade, there has to be some variability in their various components, although it might be quite slight. The hardware would have to be right, either by canablizing original hardware or making an exact copy (tailpiece wouldn't be too difficult). Even the "smell" could be duplicated close enough for it to pass the "smell test".

Of course, the artist building the instrument would have to be looking at one (or more) while he built it, as well as have detailed plans, and probably one of the "experts" working with him during the entire process. Interesting to think about!

You might find the following article interesting!

http://books.google.com/books?id=32H...0chair&f=false

[Glassweb]

With Loar F5s it really does come down to hands-on experience. With all the known examples (made between 1922-1925) there is quite a bit of variation in nearly every aspect of their construction... it's really kind of crazy! Without hours of playing, holding, examining, reading up on and researching their "lore", it might be pretty difficult for someone to distinguish the genuine article from a well-made forgery. With most of today's luthiers striving for cosmetic perfection, one easy way to determine authenticity right off the bat would be to check out the quality of the build. For while the quality level of Loar construction was astoundingly high (for the time), it would not match up with the super-clean binding and inlay work of today's high-end custom made mandolins. On the other hand, the current fad of mandolin distressing can be confusing too, because naturally played and aged mandolins do (to my eye) look quite different than the purposeful "distressing" that seems to be the all rage these days. I hope this (brief) explanation is of some help... however, the other Loarfolkists know alot more about the super-fine details of Loars than I do...

[f5loar]

AL Wood? I've been doing some shows with him lately.
If you are from the Carolinas then you are in what I call the heart of Loar Fakes. There are so many out there with "The Gibson" flowerpots/ferns, signed labels, varnish finish it would be very difficult to say if you have ever held a real Loar in the past 40 years. Like just tonight I did a stage show with the legendary Bruce Jones who had a really nice older CE Ward Loar copy. Dewey Farmer brought his newly bought Gibson DMM model and I had a
'23 Loar. If you stood beside all 3 of us tonight I doubt seriously you would pick out the real deal. Mine would probably have been your last pick as mine has some altered characteristics that real Loars don't have. And mine's pretty shinny too. You would probably pick Dewey's DMM because it looked the most authentic but one look at Danny Roberts signature and you would know it's not. Then there was Bruce Jones copy complete with fake labels. It's had natural distressing daily over the past 40 years so it looks pretty darn authentic. Best just come see me and I'll set you straight. Plan to spend a half day.

[barney 59]

Gail Hester nailed the determinant: SMELL!
Charlie Derrington was doing serious alchemy to come up with the eau de Loar for his Master Models, but never unlocked that secret.

The formula is stale beer,ashtray scrapeings,cheap bourbon & the underside of a rotting log mixed with water from a seriously polluted river.
With the value up so high on Loars it is conceivable that someone who had the skill might possibly be able to counterfeit a Loar that would even convince the experts. It happens with violins and art and money why not mandolins? If it's that good it might almost be worth it.

[Glassweb]

i'll pay a thousand dollars plus a round trip ticket to Hawaii to anyone that can hand me a genuine Lloyd Loar F5 and a forged example and not have me choose the real deal... any takers?

[evanreilly]

I wonder if any 'copies' have ever passed the 'smell-the-F-hole' test of F5Loar?

[re simmers]

How 'bout the scent of a fireplace poker? Instantly, #73987 flashes.

[f5loar]

73987 is one of those acceptions to the rule on the smell test. It smelled like dead rattlesnake tails. Actually the original case is as important to the Loar smell as the mandolin itself. Loose that original case and you could loose that Loar smell. I've heard Doc Watson can tell an original from a fake without looking.

[Links]

Alan - you would have a 50-50 chance if you didn't know a Loar from a bread basket! I think it is foolish to think that any expert could not be fooled. The truth is that all of them could be fooled and never know it.

A friend of mine bought an "original" William Aiken Walker painting (Charleston, SC artist 1839-1921)a few years ago after having it examined by the foremost authority on Walker paintings. The "experts" exact words after examining it was "it's right as rain". My friend bought it. A couple of years ago he wanted to sell it to me as a "study piece". It was indeed a fake. However, it was not the expert that recognized it as a fake, but a laboratory that ran an analysis on the white paint that verified that the paint used on the painting had not been developed until well after Walker's death.

Fakes can certainly be exposed, but it is not always the "expert" that can emphirically prove that someting is a fake. In the case of the Brewster chair in the article that I posted, it was really the builder that was instrumental in exposing it as a fake. Of course all of the experts agreed that it was a fake after they found out.

[300win]

AL Wood? I've been doing some shows with him lately.
If you are from the Carolinas then you are in what I call the heart of Loar Fakes. There are so many out there with "The Gibson" flowerpots/ferns, signed labels, varnish finish it would be very difficult to say if you have ever held a real Loar in the past 40 years. Like just tonight I did a stage show with the legendary Bruce Jones who had a really nice older CE Ward Loar copy. Dewey Farmer brought his newly bought Gibson DMM model and I had a
'23 Loar. If you stood beside all 3 of us tonight I doubt seriously you would pick out the real deal. Mine would probably have been your last pick as mine has some altered characteristics that real Loars don't have. And mine's pretty shinny too. You would probably pick Dewey's DMM because it looked the most authentic but one look at Danny Roberts signature and you would know it's not. Then there was Bruce Jones copy complete with fake labels. It's had natural distressing daily over the past 40 years so it looks pretty darn authentic. Best just come see me and I'll set you straight. Plan to spend a half day.

Tom thanks, sometime in the future when I have a day to come down there, and you have the time to teach me Loar lore, I'll sure do it. Have you ever picked any of Bob Shue's mandolins ? I had him build me a snakehead A, it was the second one he had made I think. Mine had a coiled snake inlay on the headstock. I sold it to some guys and it was stolen from them at the Mecklinburg fiddlers convention. Besides the two Gibsons I have now it was the best mandolin I ever owned. Bob has made some good picking mandolins. My first mandolin was built by Dean Clawson, it looked like a real old F-5 Gibson, but it's sound was not like it looked, not too good. I never could figger out what was wrong with that mandolin. It ate strings, I was constantly breaking them. Bobby Osborne checked it out one time, fooled with moving the bridge around, etc. And his words to me was "son, you need to get you a good mandolin". Yea I would have liked to, but there was no way I could back in them days. I've enjoyed talking to ya'll about this. Had never heard of smelling a instrument to detect a certain oder until this. Although I do know that all acoustic instruments will have that "old smell" to them. I have noticed this before whenever someone would let me pick one they had. I once had a Gibson RB-250 Bowtie circa 1950's that had that old smell, and my dad once had a Gibson J-45 I think circa 1933 that had that old smell. Is that what Loars have or is it more differant in some way ?

[300win]

Oh and Tom, I am a born and bred child of the "Old North State". Have lived here all my life in Stokes county except for a year's stint picking in Atlanta, Georgia. And I agree with you this part of N.C. has a plethora of Gibson copies running around.

[f5loar]

Bob Shue told me I had bought the 2nd A5 he had made.
Dennis Severt got the first one.
That was in 1972 and it had "The Gibson" with a flowerpot.
Was yours older then that? Bob still picking and building those F5 copies but with his logo in them now. I use to be in a band with Dean Clawson. The only really great Clawson F5 I've played is the early one Rick Alread has.
Now that's one heck of a NC picker you don't hear about too often these days.
There use to be a great family style resturant up in Tobbacoville. Can't remember the name but it's still there under another name. PollyRosa? I go to the Hillbilly Hideaway up the road and pick with the boys when I eat there. Who could forget the Stokes County Ramblers. The little short guy with the tenor banjo and the real tall guy with the upright bass. What a group. The Loars have a smell unto their own. Some call it the smell of money others call it old dirty socks left out in the rain to mildew.

[300win]

I got my Shue in 1973. Bob told me then that Gwen Auman { girl picker} had number 1. I know Dennis and never thought he had a Shue. Only mandolin I've ever seen him play is a 1957 F-5 Gibson. As far as Rick, yes he's a great picker and as a matter of fact him and Kenneth Berrier is coming to my home on the 29th. We are getting together with a couple of my picking buddies to see if we mesh together good enough to form an impromptu band to play for fun every now and then. I told Rick that I would be willing to play guitar as he is a better mandolin picker than I am. Although I won the first place mandolin competition in Union Grove in '72, I am willing to play any instrument except bass to be able to play in one more good band before I die. Yep the cafe you played was the PollyRosa, and suprizingly I never went there. I was busy for many years raising youngins , raising tobacco, working construction, so I didn't get out much, and only played music with my dad for the most part in his kitchen about every Saturday night. I've probably seen you picking in the past Tom. I used to go to all the fiddlers conventions when I was a member of the Bluegrass Buddies, that was long ago.

[8ch(pl)]

Am I mistaken or did I read once (some years ago) that George Gruhn stated that there were more counterfeit Loar F5's in existance than there were genuine ones? Also in the same article he stated that a well known luthier had taken F5 Gibsons and made fake Loar labels and changed their looks to make a near perfect Loar imposter.

[f5loar]

Dennis had a Shue for sure. Bob made up 2 with The Gibson in head and Dennis got the pick of the 2 and I got the one he didn't pick. Dennis must not have kept it long as he still plays his old 50's F5. I lost mine in a divorce.
I think what you got were A5s with the Shue name in them vs. us getting the The Gibson ones. I guess ours were the prototype. If you can pick up there with Rick and Kenneth no need to come pick with me. You are way out of my league. You just well get on the next bus with Skaggs or McCoury if you are holding tight with those guys. There probably are more fakes then there are real but there are only a few really good fakes.
Gruhn almost bought one back in the 60's. He was smart enough to get a 2nd opinion and I think even a 3rd before the deal didn't go down. That that same fake has been passed around as the real deal many times since then.
But it's pretty easy to tell, it's got a 1921 date on it.

[SternART]

But it's pretty easy to tell, it's got a 1921 date on it.

Ohhhhh prototype.........is that how George missed that?
Or hadn't the dates of Loyd's tenure been documented at that time?

[Charley wild]

Alan - you would have a 50-50 chance if you didn't know a Loar from a bread basket! I think it is foolish to think that any expert could not be fooled. The truth is that all of them could be fooled and never know it.

A friend of mine bought an "original" William Aiken Walker painting (Charleston, SC artist 1839-1921)a few years ago after having it examined by the foremost authority on Walker paintings. The "experts" exact words after examining it was "it's right as rain". My friend bought it. A couple of years ago he wanted to sell it to me as a "study piece". It was indeed a fake. However, it was not the expert that recognized it as a fake, but a laboratory that ran an analysis on the white paint that verified that the paint used on the painting had not been developed until well after Walker's death.

Fakes can certainly be exposed, but it is not always the "expert" that can emphirically prove that someting is a fake. In the case of the Brewster chair in the article that I posted, it was really the builder that was instrumental in exposing it as a fake. Of course all of the experts agreed that it was a fake after they found out.

Who was the guy who painted the fake Vermeer's? Was it back in the 1930's? Fooled a BUNCH of "experts". Faking a Vermeer? Now that takes REAL talent! What usually trips up the experts is their own arrogance! And the fakers know it!

[Zigeuner]

Who was the guy who painted the fake Vermeer's? Was it back in the 1930's? Fooled a BUNCH of "experts". Faking a Vermeer? Now that takes REAL talent! What usually trips up the experts is their own arrogance! And the fakers know it!

I was waiting for someone to mention the issue of artwork fakes. There are entire volumes written on that topic. In a way, faking a Loar would be akin to a fake of a painting by an old master.

Courts frown on such things. I imagine that one could get a lot of time in jail for such an act, too. Judges frequently determine the crooks' sentences in years by the amount of loss and theft. Bernie Madoff stands as a notable example.
I imagine that a master luthier could fake a Loar but I also know that anyone with enough money to purchase one would very likely have it autheniticated.

Sadly, I'll not have to worry about having a Loar verified since I'd have to sell most everything I own. I doubt my wife would approve anyway. LOL.

[man dough nollij]

I've heard Doc Watson can tell an original from a fake without looking.

How do you know he's not peeking?

[Darryl Wolfe]

This may not answer your question, but it will give you something to contemplate. Most of us so called experts can look at a Loar and tell you almost definitively what the signature date inside is without looking. That also narrows down the serial number to plus or minus 20-30. Only occassionally will an oddball Loar throw a wrench in the deal. With that in mind, I believe you should be able to understand the complexity of your question.

[Links]

Zig/Charley:

You are correct that art work, paticularly some of the old masters paintings, are probably the most notorius. Because so many have been evaluated as the "real deal" (and later turned out not to be) is the reason that I am positive that the "experts" can be fooled. Also, the "experts" occassionally declare an original as a fake. Recently I saw an article where a 73 year old lady truck driver living in a trailer bought a Jackson Pollock for $5. When someone told her it looked like a Pollock, she said "who the **** is Jackson Pollock"! After all of the experts told her is was not authentic, someone found a fingerprint on it and sure enough it turned out to be Pollock's fingerprint. Of course, the "experts" then said it was probably from another artist in Pollocks studio and Pollock just happened to touch it. Yeah, sure! If I remember correctly, someone offered her between one and four million dollars, although it could have been worth more like 40 or 50 million.

They eventually caught the thieves who were painting and distributing the fake W.A.Walkers (http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/ar...s/walk0700.htm). Unfortunately Zig, some courts do not look as harshly on these crooks as they should - read article. I have no idea why, as they are real scum!

[Links]

Darryl:

I do not consider you a "so called expert" - I consider you an expert. I also don't think I have ever seen you respond that you could not be fooled. Granted, it would take something real unusual to do it!