3 Guitars in Kentucky Thunder

[journeybear]

Oops! Sorry for the mixup, folks. Statman, Stein, both very handy Andy's ...

[mandozilla]

Yah, yah, it's a nice guitar but it's still a dopey archtop to me...in the bluegrass context that is. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I think it boils down to money. The fewer personnel you carry, the more money you can make. Otherwise there may have been 32 piece bluegrass orchestras back in the day. lol

[Bluegrass Boy]

Well, no bluegrass band has as much sheer horsepower as KT. That band is in a class of its own as far as I'm concerned. Each year at the Hardly Strictly Festival in San Francisco, his gets the young folks pumped up and dancing playing very traditional bluegrass with power that most rock and roll would kill for.

Some may say that aint how Bill did it, but I'm not sure it's not in the spirit of Bill. Regardless, it sure is fun.

[Ronny Stecher]

I love guitars. Some off my favorite music had 3 guitarists. The Outlaws w/Thomasson, Jones, & Paul were fantastic. Complimenting each other with every strum and pluck, them 1st 2 albums are must owns. Lynyrd Skynyrd had King, Rossington, & Collins and were also great. The different tones from each guitarist was unique and added to the overall sound, it has to work within the song/sound. If you overplay a song and it sounds too busy you blew it, No matter how many intruments you limit yourself to. Graceful placements of the notes with distinctly different tones are great and can give the song a full and varied sound that'd be hard to replicate. Skynyrd would have Billy Powell on piano throwing in some fills and leads while you had 2 unique rhythms being played to compliment the overall sound. If it's too busy it's like looking up at the stars in NYC the beauty of the sky is lost in the light pollution.

I also feel a voice is an instrument, It's a God given instrument/talent that some are blessed with and some ain't (like me). It's like size in sports, It can't be coached, it can be enhanced, but it's God given.

[EdSherry]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the precedent set by Django Reinhardt with the Hot Club of France.

Django insisted on having two rhythm guitarists as well as his own guitar, an upright bass and Stephane Grappelli on violin, so that when Django played lead, he would have as solid a rhythm sound behind him as Stephane had when he soloed.

[mandozilla]

I love guitars. Some off my favorite music had 3 guitarists. The Outlaws w/Thomasson, Jones, & Paul were fantastic. Complimenting each other with every strum and pluck, them 1st 2 albums are must owns. Lynyrd Skynyrd had King, Rossington, & Collins and were also great. The different tones from each guitarist was unique and added to the overall sound, it has to work within the song/sound. If you overplay a song and it sounds too busy you blew it, No matter how many intruments you limit yourself to. Graceful placements of the notes with distinctly different tones are great and can give the song a full and varied sound that'd be hard to replicate. Skynyrd would have Billy Powell on piano throwing in some fills and leads while you had 2 unique rhythms being played to compliment the overall sound. If it's too busy it's like looking up at the stars in NYC the beauty of the sky is lost in the light pollution.

I also feel a voice is an instrument, It's a God given instrument/talent that some are blessed with and some ain't (like me). It's like size in sports, It can't be coached, it can be enhanced, but it's God given.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the precedent set by Django Reinhardt with the Hot Club of France.

Django insisted on having two rhythm guitarists as well as his own guitar, an upright bass and Stephane Grappelli on violin, so that when Django played lead, he would have as solid a rhythm sound behind him as Stephane had when he soloed.

All well and good but it AIN'T Bluegrass! We're talking Bluegrass music here.

[Dennis Ladd]

To me, the three guitars muddy the mix. I like the clarity and separation you get from one of each instrument in a band.

Then again, I listen mostly on headphones on a CD player so maybe muddy is as muddy does. Played on my speakers maybe it would sound better.

Still, all of his albums are keepers, aren't they.

[EdSherry]

' Zilla -- What RS/KT does clearly IS bluegrass. The issue is why he wants a three-guitar lineup, when no other BG band (to my knowledge) has one. The answer clearly is for the sound that he gets with three guitars -- presumably, a bigger fuller sound than he would get with one or two.

That's what brought Django to mind. Could Django have gotten along with just one rhythm guitar? Sure. But he wanted the fuller sound that he got with two rhythm players behind his solos.

As for Dennis' point about "muddying the mix" with multiple guitars, that clearly depends on how the instruments are treated in the recording / mixing process. An acoustic jam with three guitar players clearly can sound muddy. Ricky and his engineer presumably work hard to eliminate the mud. To my ears, they've succeeded, though YMMV.

[allenhopkins]

Being annoying by nature, and bringing over my point from this recent thread, I get a bit exercised when someone says that such and such a combination of instruments, selection of repertoire, lineup of performers, or wardrobe choice, doesn't constitute bluegrass, or jazz, or old-time, or Celtic, or whatever. What authority determines that having three guitars in a band means that it's not a bluegrass band? What if there were two banjo players, or three singers who didn't play instruments at all (see above), or a pennywhistle player? Or a drummer, or harmonica player, or pedal steel -- all of which have been heard on recordings by major bluegrass artists like Flatt & Scruggs, Jim & Jesse, J D Crowe & the New South, etc.?

You may or may not like the Skaggs Wall of Sound, may find the three-guitar lineup muddy or massive or miraculous, but, regardless of whatever the IBGMA may or may not allow in its competitions, there are darn few grounds for saying Kentucky Thunder isn't bluegrass. Sure sounds like it to me!

[GVD]

Darrin Vincent left KT back in late 2007 to form Dailey & Vincent and was not replaced. That left Cody Kilby on lead guitar and Paul Brewster on rhythm guitar. Andy Leftwich plays guitar on occasion, as does Ricky, but is mainly the fiddle player.

Leon

Darrin wasn't replaced until IIRC about the beginning of this year with as others have said Eddie Faris formerly of the Faris family band. He sings primarily baritone not tenor as someone stated earlier in the thread. Paul Brewster handles most of the tenor parts.

It's speculation on my part but one of the reasons for the seemingly redundant position may be so that person can concentrate on his harmony part. If you've ever done much harmony singing you know the baritone part can be a real handful especially when the tenor singer moves his part around alot.

[swampstomper]

Being annoying by nature, and bringing over my point from this recent thread, I get a bit exercised when someone says that such and such a combination of instruments, selection of repertoire, lineup of performers, or wardrobe choice, doesn't constitute bluegrass, or jazz, or old-time, or Celtic, or whatever.

Completely agree. Was it "not bluegrass" when Monroe used twin fiddles and no banjo on the Opry stage in 1954 for the remake of Blue Moon of KY? Was it not BG when Jimmy Martin had Earl Taylor put a harmonica part into Jimmy's version of OBS? On and on.

Whatever one may say about Skaggs, he puts on a bluegrass music show. He likes having more punch with his guitars, he has the money to hire them, he knows how to rehearse them to get the sound he as a bandleader wants... what's not to like?

[JeffD]

I love to watch ridiculous conversations like this, what is and what isn't bluegrass. OT music has them too, as does every genre I suspect.

This one is particularly ridiculous because we are not discussing whether an accordion can be included, or a cello, we are discussion whether a third guitar is welcome.

Its a hoot.

[Tom C]

That 3rd player with arched top, who just blended in, used to be Daryl Vincent. Darn good musician and singer plus he drove the bus.
It must have been hard to Ricky to find another good arch top player who stands 5'5" and can drive a bus. how does he do it?

[mandozilla]

I didn't mean to say RS &KT was not Bluegrass, I was referring to D Rheinhardt, and the others mentioned in the quote. I like RS...alot but I still don't see why he can't find one, or two, guitar players for his band and I still see no role for a DOPEY ARCHTOP git picker in a BG band. All you other genre musicians are welcome to your opinions as am I and I find it amusing for folks whose primary musical passion IS NOT bluegrass music, Allen, to prattle on about what is or is not the music they care little about. JMHO.

[Paul Kotapish]

I don't want to speak for Mark (mandozilla), but I read his comment about "it ain't bluegrass" to refer to the examples of the multiple guitars in the Outlas, Lynard Skinner, and Django's Hot Club--of which were--in fact--not bluegrass.

(EDIT: See Mark's comment above.)

As for the extra guitars in Kentucky Thunder, I certainly don't think they incur any penalty points in the is-it-or-is-it-not-bluegrass derby. Maybe their lineup wouldn't qualify for an SPBGMA contest, but I don't think those lads need to win any contests.

Archtop or not--we've already covered the Maybelle Carter angle on archtops in pre-bluegrass--there are plenty of examples of bluegrass bands with more than one guitar: George Shuffler's distinctive second rhythm parts and his bass-string and crosspicked guitar solos were a great part of the Stanley Brothers sound, Don Reno often swapped out his banjo for second guitar with Smiley or Harrell, just to cite two well-known exceptions to the conventional formulas.

Bluegrass music is as strong and popular as its ever been and the bluegrass tenets are well defended enough to withstand a little tinkering with the classic format. Personally, I like to hear a little experimentation with the formula.

And Mark, just because you think that an archtop doesn't belong in bluegrass, doesn't make the instrument itself DOPEY. You might argue that Ricky Skaggs is dopey for including one in his ostensible bluegrass outfit, but the instrument itself is perfectly fine--sophisticated even--in its native habitat.

[Ronny Stecher]

All well and good but it AIN'T Bluegrass! We're talking Bluegrass music here.

Valid point I have to concede, The original post posed the question of the future of Bluegrass,I focused on the 3 guitar attack, but I always thought of the early Outlaws had elements of a High octane blue grass band, Electric guitars can play any style as there's such varying sound options, bluegrass included, Acoustics may not be as distinct, That all I wanted to add?
The Outlaws rocked but had musical genre crossovers, Here's a tune I always consided "bluegrass", I guess technically not? Here's a clip from '81 with just Hughie & Billy on guitars after Henry Paul split and one with, It's electrified BG at times without the fiddle.....






Sorry to borrow the thread, Back on topic...


......

[mtucker]

I know this isn't strictly BG but saw these boys at the Nokia, and at times they had four 'geetar players. The lead player to the right, out of the picture, took the bread and butter solo work, sparing Joe. 'Four' guitars really rawked for them...

[Ronny Stecher]

The early Bernie Leadon lead eagles did some BG dabbling....

[D C Blood]

My only problem with the "sock Rhythm" of the archtop guitar is that it eliminates the mandolin chop or at least duplicates it, and we all know that the mandolin chop is a much nicer sound than an archtop guitar chop...

[GVD]

...And Mark, just because you think that an archtop doesn't belong in bluegrass, doesn't make the instrument itself DOPEY. You might argue that Ricky Skaggs is dopey for including one in his ostensible bluegrass outfit, but the instrument itself is perfectly fine--sophisticated even--in its native habitat.

I could give a rip about the instrument itself but I sure hope he's not referring to the musicians as dopey. I don't know the Daryl Vincent that Tom C cited but I do know Darren and Eddie pretty well and I'm here to tell you them boys are BG musicians through and through. They can both play just about any instrument you stick in their hands better than you can and I guarantee they'll out sing you.

[mandozilla]

I am NOT referring to the musicians as DOPEY ...The musicians are just fine and I think arch-top guitars are pretty cool ...in their place...But I still think they're DOPEY and out of place in the BG context...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Carleton Page]

I really like the addition of the arch top. I think it adds a little uhmf(never tried to spell that before). I think it contibutes a lot to the huge punch that KT has. It sounds to me like it supports the chop. Is it necessary? No, but I think it sounds good in his music. I am sure Cody could handle it all by himself. I am pretty sure that is not the issue. That's apparently not how Mr. Scaggs envisions his music, and that is what it comes down to.
Having said all that . I will admit a little shock the first time I saw them play.

[Bluegrass Boy]

My local independent market makes great sausages. I don't ask them how they make them, I just enjoy the results and I aint gonna question how Ricky does what he does.

[Paul Kotapish]

I am NOT referring to the musicians as DOPEY ...The musicians are just fine and I think arch-top guitars are pretty cool ...in their place...But I still think they're DOPEY and out of place in the BG context...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Good for you, Mark! Somebody has to hold the line around this joint.

Me, I sometimes play old-time music with a group where everybody plays arcthtop f-hole instruments--fiddle, bass, mandolin, and guitar. That's breaking at least two or three rules before we even play a note, but I think it sounds cool. And one of my favorite guitars for playing proto-bluegrass (brother duets, Carter Family stuff, Charlie Poole songs, old-time fiddle tunes) is a 1931 Martin C-1--a round-hole archtop. It's probably dopey, and I know I'm dopey, but I like it.

[allenhopkins]

...I find it amusing for folks whose primary musical passion IS NOT bluegrass music, Allen, to prattle on about what is or is not the music they care little about. JMHO.

Hey, be nice. I played bluegrass for well over a decade, and have 30 years of Bluegrass Unlimited back issues stacked in my basement, along with Frets, Muleskinner News, etc. Also several hundred bluegrass albums, dating back to when I was listening to the Osborne Brothers, Keith & Rooney, and the Charles River Valley Boys back in the Mesozoic Era in Cambridge MA. I don't play it much now professionally, but enjoy the occasional jam (nice little mandolin jam at Bernunzio's last Friday, on the occasion of Grisman's visit).

I find it somewhat amusing when people spend effort trying to draw boundaries around musical styles, with the intention of ruling some musicians in and others out. Music is music, and different styles and genres are constantly influencing and cross-pollinating each other.

There are attempts to meld bluegrass with other styles that I really don't like; here's one of my un-favorites (and can you believe it, I own the LP):



But I put that down to my personal preference, not to the musicians involved transgressing some "law" about what is or isn't bluegrass. Everyone's entitled to "prattle" on about what they don't like; no one's the Ayatollah of Bluegrass ordering a fatwah on the harmonica player.