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  1. #51
    Mandogal Barb Friedland's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Quote Originally Posted by xenophile View Post
    Quote: As others have said keeping the wrist loose, unhindered and relaxed is key.
    So my thought is- how can a mando player achieve said loose, unhindered and relaxed wrist if the player is planting? It is true that when I play, I am aware of where the bridge is relative to my right hand but it isn't a deliberate resting point.
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  2. #52
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    I would advise not to confuse planting with resting. I often rest my wrist, or more specifically, the heel of my hand on the strings behind the bridge. No string is muted with my hand in this picking position. I don't do it exclusively, but I do do it, and I'd say it's for the louder, single note stuff. Chopping, or rhythmic strumming is a different issue - there, my hand is free of the mandolin completely. On the ubiquitous D'Addario video of Mike Marshall offering mandolin tips, he says to place the hand on the bridge "ever so slightly." This is not planting.
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  3. #53
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb Friedland View Post
    So my thought is- how can a mando player achieve said loose, unhindered and relaxed wrist if the player is planting? .
    I am not sure how I do it actually, but it can be done.
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  4. #54
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    The Right Hand Techniques Study is at the link below. There are quite a few notables who plant. That's what makes this whole topic so perplexing.
    BTW, That was a slanted "proposition" for planting/brushing where all the "witnesses" were selected to forward that particular case. So I wouldn't take it for anything more.

    The list is pretty limited in scope (and genre): no oval players E(except Norman/Nancy Blake), and mostly BG. Where are the classical, the celtic, the jazz players?

    Evan Marshall, Doyle, Jimmy G, Dave Swarbrick, Martin Jenkins, Andy Irvine, Keith Harris, Dave Apollon, Jethro Burns, Paul Buskirk, Ostroushko, Mair, the Brazilians, etc. etc. What were their hand positions and use/nonuse of pickguards?

    One could compile a counter-"list of name players" for the non-planting argument as well

  5. #55

    Default Re: "planting"

    I don't think its really a question of genre; or a right and wrong way to do it. Just what works best for the player. All RH placement is a compromise. While any contact (planting, brushing, resting, whatever) adds some amount of resistance, many many have overcome this for an advantage in playing speed/accuracy. I personally recommend experimenting and changeing it up. This will help with the old stuck right hand phenom.

  6. #56

    Default Re: "planting"

    the "power" grip weaned me off the pinkie-plant and i expect the "mcclung" armrest i just ordered from doug will keep me high - so to speak - for evermore.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: "planting"

    It's already been talked about who the best of the best are. And a lot of them plant. Not all, but a lot. I plant, use a capo from time to time and use Fender medium pics because I like the sharp clean sound they give me. If I ever teach mandolin I will teach my students to plant or brush because I think it will help them to fly! Like someone else said a few posts back, whatever works for you. Just don't put down planting because it works for so many great players and regular players like me. The school of bluegrass says the proper way is to plant or not to plant!~ Nick
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    Default Re: "planting"

    In uke circles, this subject is sometimes discussed more emotionaly, as in guitar circles. Mandolin players seem to be able to keep their heads level-er

    As someone not as accomplished as most of you, (but maybe a better uke player), planting, to borrow J McGann's words, ultimately limits your mobility and creates stress. Really on any instrument except banjo, I've heard. if you're sticking to the first 4 frets, I think you're ok to plant, and wrap your thumb too! But as you progress on an instrument, you would find that keeping what is generally believed to be proper hand position will allow you to go outside the box a bit better.

    And because mandolin players are so dang civil, I don't even feel the need to qualify that with
    "but there are some that use planting and wrapping to great affect."

    Edit: There was some talk about Tommy Emmanuel(guitar) planting on another board, and he does in certain spots, but his general approach is a loose wrist and and fingers away. There are spots where you have to plant for stability, and where you do brush the pinky for reference, and brushing is not planting. It's really about dynamics and how you want to accomplish said dynamics.

  9. #59
    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    A related topic is "Loose fist versus dangling fingers". I stopped posting years ago on guitar and carried that to mando - but - I have always played with fingers dangling and now I'm convinced that a loose but close hand is faster. Takes a while to adjust - but like everything else it comes along with time.

    Also, I suspect that a percentage of the accomplished "planters" are able to play very comfortably either way and probably use the plant in some situations but not in other situations.
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  10. #60
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    No, NOT whatever works for you. You would never teach four finger planting like Wes Montgomery and you would never teach "tune to a chord and fret with your thumb" like Richie Havens and you should not plant your finger on the mandolin top if you are just starting out. There are techniques, the execution of which will yield more desirable results. The planting pros are the exceptions, they don't disprove the rule. The fact of the matter is that you have more mobility and better tone if you don't inhibit both your arm's ability to move and your mandolin top's ability to resonate by cramming a finger down on it and keeping it there.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  11. #61

    Default Re: "planting"

    After a 10 year hiatus from mandolin, I picked it back up in January. I decided to work more on technique and went from planting to not planting. I didn't find the transition too hard, and feel like I get better volume now.

    Some years ago, I married a gal that had been raised in Europe playing classical violin. She had spent hours and hours on exactly how to hold the bow, exactly how to place the violin, exactly how to hold the neck, etc. As an accomplished violinist, she would still regularly practice these things in front of a mirror. Technique was considered critical. It seems classical music has defined the techniques for achieving the most from the instrument. And then, they have a measure of success. Because classical is basically played as written (with some room for interpretation), there is a recognized hierarchy of music. The higher skilled musicians play harder pieces than the less skilled musicians. In folk music, the better musicians often play the same pieces as the lessers, but they play more ornately, faster, etc.
    In short, we debate technique because we have no solid measure of the effectiveness of technique, as they do in classical music.

    On the other hand, I could never (and still can't) get her to improvise. She will play what is written, no more, no less.
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  12. #62

    Default Re: "planting"

    Quote Originally Posted by papawhisky View Post
    ... I could never (and still can't) get her to improvise. She will play what is written, no more, no less.
    It's all good.
    that's my experience as well, when playing medieval music here in italy - happy-clappy pilgrim songs or various dance tunes - the kids (mostly) will not take the bare bone of these simple melodies and just run with them.

  13. #63
    Registered User 300win's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: "planting"

    Quote Originally Posted by neal View Post
    In uke circles, this subject is sometimes discussed more emotionaly, as in guitar circles. Mandolin players seem to be able to keep their heads level-er

    As someone not as accomplished as most of you, (but maybe a better uke player), planting, to borrow J McGann's words, ultimately limits your mobility and creates stress. Really on any instrument except banjo, I've heard. if you're sticking to the first 4 frets, I think you're ok to plant, and wrap your thumb too! But as you progress on an instrument, you would find that keeping what is generally believed to be proper hand position will allow you to go outside the box a bit better.

    And because mandolin players are so dang civil, I don't even feel the need to qualify that with
    "but there are some that use planting and wrapping to great affect."

    Edit: There was some talk about Tommy Emmanuel(guitar) planting on another board, and he does in certain spots, but his general approach is a loose wrist and and fingers away. There are spots where you have to plant for stability, and where you do brush the pinky for reference, and brushing is not planting. It's really about dynamics and how you want to accomplish said dynamics.


    "Really on any instrument except banjo, I've heard " In bluegrass playing of the banjo using 3 fingers I believe you could pick it without planting, but it wouldn't sound right. The main reason a BG banjo picker does plant is to muffle the head of the banjo just a tad to get good tone from it. And like a mandolin the banjos tone will change from closer to the bridge to closer to the neck.

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    Default Re: "planting"

    Thanks 300win, I know nothing about banjo, but it would seem to make sense in regard to the tone. I do know on the uke, playing fingerstyle it's best not to plant, and same with guitar. On guitar, it took about 3 weeks back in the early 90's to un-learn planting, on uke it's natural. With mandolin, heck, I'm re-training myself to use a pick, so different...

    Two vids I saw today, both "Sweet Sue", Dave Apollon and Dave Harvey. No planting there.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ar4lUWY-is -Harvey
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4SFn5avl_E -Apollon


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    Default Re: "planting"

    And like a mandolin the banjos tone will change from closer to the bridge to closer to the neck.
    And the master at that is none other than JD and his Crowe...

  16. #66
    Registered User Charley wild's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    I usually jump right into this type of thread opinions a flyin'! I've watched this thread grow and have shown uncharacteristic discipline so far but, alas, it wasn't to last. A few thoughts:
    First, I respectfully disagree with 300win. I've played banjo for years and I've never known a banjo player to plant his finger or fingers (huge dispute on the banjo forum whether it's proper to plant pinkie or ring and pinkie!) to control tone. You do it to stabilize your hand because you don't want it laying on the bridge. You control tone by moving your hand toward or away from the neck or pick lighter. You could play a banjo without planting I suppose. But it would be very difficult and I don't know anyone who does.
    Second: Like the banjo pinkie versus ring and pinkie it really doesn't matter if you plant or don't on the mandolin as long as you can achieve your desired result. More power to you either way you choose.
    Third: That having been said for my views on the subject re-read Jim's posts. I not only use the methods he describes I agree with his views on teaching! You could play a mandolin like Thumbs Carlisle* played a guitar I suppose but I certainly wouldn't attempt to teach someone to do it!

    * If you aren't familiar with Thumbs Carlisle, look him up on YouTube.
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  17. #67
    Registered User 300win's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Quote Originally Posted by Charley wild View Post
    I usually jump right into this type of thread opinions a flyin'! I've watched this thread grow and have shown uncharacteristic discipline so far but, alas, it wasn't to last. A few thoughts:
    First, I respectfully disagree with 300win. I've played banjo for years and I've never known a banjo player to plant his finger or fingers (huge dispute on the banjo forum whether it's proper to plant pinkie or ring and pinkie!) to control tone. You do it to stabilize your hand because you don't want it laying on the bridge. You control tone by moving your hand toward or away from the neck or pick lighter. You could play a banjo without planting I suppose. But it would be very difficult and I don't know anyone who does.
    Second: Like the banjo pinkie versus ring and pinkie it really doesn't matter if you plant or don't on the mandolin as long as you can achieve your desired result. More power to you either way you choose.
    Third: That having been said for my views on the subject re-read Jim's posts. I not only use the methods he describes I agree with his views on teaching! You could play a mandolin like Thumbs Carlisle* played a guitar I suppose but I certainly wouldn't attempt to teach someone to do it!

    * If you aren't familiar with Thumbs Carlisle, look him up on YouTube.
    Techniquewise he'll wake you right up!
    What I meant by what I said is for the people that do not play banjo, you do and I do and we both know that a banjo "rings" differant when nothing is touching the head vs. something that is. I, like you have never seen a BG banjo picker play without planting either his little finger or the next one to it or both,{ but I have seen guitar players do it} but I don't think it is entirely impossible to pick one three finger style without planting, it would be very difficult I agree, but I think it could be done, but still if you did the sustaining tone would just not sound correct Yes being a banjo picker also I realize that the place you "plant" your fingers does make a differance in tone be it closer or further from the bridge. I myself pick a banjo with my hand in closer to the bridge than many banjo pickers because I like a banjos tone to "crack", { think Don Reno} but not as close as Ralph Stanley which is as close as you can get probably without being on the backside of the bridge.

  18. #68
    Registered User 300win's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    I have a friend who is my neighbor also that is an excellant Bluegrass musician on banjo, fiddle, guitar, and mandolin, although the fiddle is his power instrument, he can flat pick the tar out of any of the rest of them. He's about 38 years old and to give you an idea of his musical ability he played with Jim and Jesse on the Grand Old Opry 3 times as a guest musician when he was 16-17 years old picking the banjo. My point in saying this is when he plays mandolin he "rests" his hand on the bridge, and does very well like that, but he also has at times "rest" his hand so well that he actually moved the bridge a hair and got the intonation out a little. Twice after playing my mandolins in the past he has knocked it out some, and he regularly does it on his own mandolin, which he constantly is messing with the tuning because of that fact. I have told him this, but he like me has been picking his way for so long he can't change. I suspect there are others like that, not knocking that way, as long as you can pick and it is comfortable to you, then why is one way better than the other ?

  19. #69
    Registered User 300win's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Also Charlie, the mandolin like the banjo does have differant tone/volume when your fingers are touching vs. when they're not, it is very subtle, but it's there.

  20. #70
    Registered User Charley wild's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Sorry, "300". I misunderstood your post! I agree that the tone is different on the banjo with or without pressure on the head. And volume. I suppose it's true of the mandolin to some degree although the top is more stable than a banjo head. But I've never thought to control either tone or volume that way on either instrument. We're really not in disagreement here just a bit of misunderstanding. I also agree that holding one's hand anyway that pleases one is fine. I was just throwing in my two cents on how I do it. As it turns out it's exactly as Jim B. described.

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    Default Re: "planting"

    I have a friend who has the most responsive mandolin I have ever played. I notice that when I plant the sound is really the same great volume. My plant is so slight I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference in volume. I also notice that when I plant I move around a lot. Sometimes when playing fast and going for the sweet spot tone I just press next to the fingerboard extention which makes no difference in tone at all. Other times for volume I will move to the back areas near the bridge and plant there with my pinky. I love to plant because it's so great for clean speed. So why would you not want to plant? So you could look more refined playing bluegrass and celtic? If any of you folks have been having trouble with getting up speed on fast tunes, try planting!!!! I think you will like it. Nick
    ntriesch

  22. #72
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Nick: Can you post a video of your right hand technique? I'd like to see it.

  23. #73
    Mike Parks woodwizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    I think I'm in the brusher club more than the planter club but a friend of mine gave me a whole bunch of bulbs of "white naked ladies" that I'm going to plant tomorrow. Does that count?
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  24. #74
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Plant some flowers by my graveside
    Just a little bunch of them
    Makes no difference what they are, dear
    Since your hand has planted them.

    My final word on planting.

  25. #75
    Registered User 300win's Avatar
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    Default Re: "planting"

    Quote Originally Posted by Charley wild View Post
    Sorry, "300". I misunderstood your post! I agree that the tone is different on the banjo with or without pressure on the head. And volume. I suppose it's true of the mandolin to some degree although the top is more stable than a banjo head. But I've never thought to control either tone or volume that way on either instrument. We're really not in disagreement here just a bit of misunderstanding. I also agree that holding one's hand anyway that pleases one is fine. I was just throwing in my two cents on how I do it. As it turns out it's exactly as Jim B. described.
    "although the top is more stable than a banjo head" , Charlie in my experience, speaking just about both my mamdolins and my banjo, my banjo is way more stable than either of my mandolins. When any little humidity change happens both my mandoplins go flat { humidity low} or sharp { humidity high}, my banjo never changes at all. I do have the head as tight as I can get it, which might have something to do with it, but I lean more towards the fact that my banjo head is made of mylar { non-porous} and the mandolins top is of wood { very porous}.

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