Dexterous Vs. Sinister teaching: Advice welcome!

[SGraham]

I have a 13-year-old mandolin student who is an absolute beginner. He showed up for his first lesson with an old, inexpensive, but playable bowlback. After some difficulty in getting him to hold the instrument properly or perform some rudimentary pick strokes, I learned that he was left-handed. Upon hearing this, I had him turn the instrument around to try the same techniques picking this time with his left hand. It appeared that both ways were equally difficult for him.

After a bit more background info I'll ask my question. He wants to save up his money for an F-style. In the meantime, he wants to begin learning to pick on the bowlback. I'm comfortable helping him switch his mandolin from a righty to a lefty. With the zero fret, making a new nut should be a simple matter. Adapting the bridge presents no huge issues either. So far, no problem. His mom, however, wonders if he should be taught as a right-hander. (I'd kinda like to see him picking as a lefty.)

If he sees both right-handed picking and left-handed picking as equally difficult--if he is indeed a "tabula rasa" as far as which hand will hold the pick, can anyone see any reason not to teach him as if he were right-handed? I'd sure appreciate anyone's insights and experiences.

Thanks!

[barney 59]

There is a left handed players group in Social Groups. They might have some ideas on this.
I can't recall ever hearing or hearing of a left handed mandolin player that played upside down (treble side up) like I've heard some guitarists. Those guitarists that do that have a very unique sound and technique though. Easier to find instruments as a right handed player.

[surfnut]

The youngest son in the Bluegrass Brothers plays lefty upside down mandolin, just like he does guitar. Ive seen him play mando guitar and bass, he's good on all of them.

[Patrick Gunning]

If both ways are equally uncoordinated, teach him righty for sure. More options later, easier use of instructional materials in the future, etc. Chris Thile is a lefty who plays righty, and I don't think it's holding him back...

[man dough nollij]

If both ways are equally uncoordinated, teach him righty for sure. More options later, easier use of instructional materials in the future, etc. Chris Thile is a lefty who plays righty, and I don't think it's holding him back...

Yeah, but he might have been quite a talent if he had just given into his sinister side...

[grassrootphilosopher]

I guess it´s a question of what may come natural to the student. If the student is equally adept to - let´s presume - do manual work (hold a hammer etc.) with his right hand, learning righty might not be a difficulty. If the student does the main chores using his left hand, I´d presume lefty learning might be necessary. Other than that there are folks (Jim Rooney among others) that play "upside down" instruments.

[Jim]

I'd vote for Right handed instrument , played righty if all things are equal because of the availability of right handed mandolins vs. left.

[JaybirdNC]

Besides Chris Thile, Sam Bush and Tim O'Brien are also left-handed. As am I--not in that category, though! Definitely best to learn to play right-handed. And I am usually a militant leftist!

John Bird

[SGraham]

Thanks for all the good input. Looks like the lad's mom might be on the "right" track. I think we'll leave the old bowlback unmodified and start with right-handed lessons.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

cool, i knew chris was a lefty (he told me that he was 60/40 left over right), but i had no idea that tim and sam were lefties as well. maybe i, being a righty, should have learned lefty.

baron

[mandocrucian]

I had him turn the instrument around to try the same techniques picking this time with his left hand. It appeared that both ways were equally difficult for him.

And given that he is an absolute beginner, that little 3 minute test determines his fate? Kinda of asking a little kid who the last three presidents are/were, and depending on how many he/she gets, is sent to an advanced class, regular school or the home for the retarded.

You might want to peruse the book Playing Violin and Fiddle Left Handed, which puts forward the case for lefties playing lefty, or at least read this Ryan Thomson interview.

At the very beginner stages, you don't need a left-hand strung instrument; it's all going to be single line melodies at first, no doublestops or chords. It doesn't make any real difference whether he plays "3 Blind Mice" on a RH or LH-strung instrument - getting just the simple muscle coordination to fret the string and to plunk the string can be done on either.

Me, I'd have him practice on both sides for at least a month and see what emerges.

But, 99% of the time the whole question is probably moot:
- it's just a passing thing and he'll quit after awhile, or...
- he'll never get beyond the thrasher whacker level even if he sticks with it
- if he does stick with it, maybe it won't make any difference which way he plays, and he'll never know if going with the other hand would have made any difference, so you're off the hook there
- it's not as if he's playing violin/fiddle where handedness probably makes a lot more of a difference
- with the bleak future awaiting him (droughts, heat waves, food shortages, pandemics, economic chaos, resource wars, etc....) , getting good, over the years, playing an instrument doesn't seem all that important.

So you may as well just do whatever is the least hassle for you.

BTW, In spite of all the years of cultural repression of the Irish Catholic church, I find it surprising that playing music LHed over there doesn't seem to be an issue. Lots of LHed flute players, fiddlers, etc. The Irish don't seem to have a problem with a kid playing lefty.

[CES]

There are more readily available options out there for righties wrt instruments/equipment, but I wouldn't think that, for the most part, lefty instruments are terribly hard to come by. I'd leave it up to the kid...I think you're right in that, if he's a blank slate, learning either way should be OK, though I'm fairly strongly right handed, and if he's really predominantly a lefty it may eventually make a difference, though I would think that the training would eventually rewire him (as it did with me dribbling/shooting basketball, fretting with my left hand, working lefty with tools when required, and even batting back when I thought switch hitting would be cool). My daughter, on the other hand, is a lefty who plays guitar righty b/c it "feels better," throws and writes lefty, but bats righty...despite my implorations early on that she bat left, throw right!!

Anyway, if the kid feels invested in the decision he's more likely to buy into it/stick with it, which is the ultimate goal if possible, anyway, regardless of how good he becomes...I wasn't pushy at all with my daughter re: her softball stuff (really, I'm not one of THOSE parents!), but I think she works a little harder at both if for no other reason than to prove me wrong.

[mando.player]

Niles, you're such an optimist

I'm a lefty that plays righty. I've often pondered the what ifs of playing left handed. I've come to the realization that the both hands have to do the work so the point really is moot. I suppose I could could argue that the left hand requires more coordination than the right and that everyone else is playing at a disadvantage. But that's neither here nor there.

I say treat it like kids learning to play baseball. A good coach will let the player approach the plate on their own (left or right). At which point they make minor adjustments to their technique based upon the player's initial choice.

[Charley wild]

I'm about 60/40 lefty-righty, actually righty-lefty. The first time I picked up a guitar way back when I held it lefthanded. I have learned the four instruments that I play or have played right handed. Like mando.player I used to wonder what would have happened if I had of learned to play left handed. But I didn't. It doesn't matter, the talent isn't in your hands.

[mandocrucian]

Niles, you're such an optimist

Yeah, that's cause I took the red pill.*

I'm a lefty that plays righty. I've often pondered the what ifs of playing left handed.

I don't know how many times I've heard that one before, yet it seems that nobody is curious enough to self-experiment and flip the instrument over. Not even trying it....It's a form of mental compartmentilaztion, just like never getting out of the first position, or playing your tunes in different keys, or putting the stuff you already know from/on another instrument onto the mando.

I've come to the realization that the both hands have to do the work so the point really is moot.

Is it? To use the baseball analogy.....then how come there aren't any left-handers playing 3rd base?

"You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll get to Scotland afore ye...." - Loch Lomond http://users.nac.net/bittsjr/scotland/lomond/lomond_lyrics.html

While you may arrive (or seem to arrive) at the same place via different routes, is it really the same? Well, maybe it's "close enough for bluegrass" that it is a moot point, for you.

When dealing with the brain, travelling in a straight line is not necessarily the most direct or fastest route. It's like one of those quantum physics paradoxes.


But first, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have

I know, I know you probably scream and cry
That your little world won't let you go
But who in your measly little world
Are you trying to prove that
You're made out of gold and, eh, can't be sold

So, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have - Jimi Hendrix

NH

*"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

So you may as well just do whatever is the least hassle for you.

To clarify: "for you (as a "teacher")"

[mando.player]

"I don't know how many times I've heard that one before, yet it seems that nobody is curious enough to self-experiment and flip the instrument over. Not even trying it....It's a form of mental compartmentilaztion, just like never getting out of the first position, or playing your tunes in different keys, or putting the stuff you already know from/on another instrument onto the mando."

Have you tried it Niles? If so how was the outcome?

After fielding a ground ball, it's quite difficult to make the throw across your body from 3rd to 1st. Of course, all the left handed infielders are already playing 1st base What's the percentage of folks who are left handed? 10-15%. In a team sport situation, the lefty is gonna get put on 1st. It's the smart coaching decision. Playing an instrument is more akin to an individual sport. At this point the metaphors start breaking down.

[Coffeecup]

No idea what the issues would be with playing but there is something I've found. Now that I've built up some decent callouses on my left fingers I have trouble picking anything up with them - pieces of paper, coins etc. No problem as most things I do with the right hand. It could be an issue for somebody if they get the callouses on the fingers of their dominant hand though. That suggests to me that a lefty would be better off playing left even if capable of either way.

[SGraham]

Thanks again everyone for the thoughtful replies.

Niles, regarding this comment:
"that little 3 minute test determines his fate? Kinda of asking a little kid who the last three presidents are/were, and depending on how many he/she gets, is sent to an advanced class, regular school or the home for the retarded."

I guess I forgot to disclose in my original post that it was at least a 4-minute test, so we're good there. Seriously though, fair enough--point taken. However, being as I'm not a well known teacher, I'm not sure ol' mom is going to put up with me having her kid switch between playing the mandolin rightside-up and and upside down for a month. She might want to take her money elsewhere. Might drive junior into the waiting arms of the local banjo teacher too. One has to consider these things carefully...

Seriously again, thanks for the links; I'll check them out.

Steve

[B. T. Walker]

My daughter Kira, a lefty, expressed a desire to play mandolin a couple of years ago when she was 8. Against the advice of Becky Smith, I had my old Goya acoustic-electrict converted to a lefty for her, but she never got the hang of holding it that way, and lost interest. Becky's opinion was that learning righty from the git-go was the best thing because there were so many other righties, guitars and players. Left-handed children are almost exclusively taught to play violin right-handed with no ill effects.

In the last couple of months, Kira's interest has perked up again. She asked to have her mando reconverted to a righty, so I took it to the local set-up guru, Gene (who is also the organizer of the local, weekly bluegrass jam). Gene has worked with many, many musicians through the years, and his advice was to teach her to play lefty. He said science backed him up. Something to do with muscle memory in the dominant hand making it easier to hold a pick (or a pencil). What did Kira decide after expert advice to the contrary? Change it to a righty.

I've tried to play lefty since her mando was set up that way. It was very difficult, but if you concentrated and worked at it, it could be done. Just not very well by me.

[mandocrucian]

Have you tried it Niles? If so how was the outcome?

Think about this: how many right-handed players on the Cafe (or the mando-world) have voluntarily (without havin some injury or dystonia force them to) put in substantial time time learning to play lefty?

Yes I have (on myself). I've talked about it on the Comando CGOW interview (see link below) a few years back, and have mentioned it on the Cafe from time to time. I Did it initially to get a better handle on teaching real beginners - it was the only way to be able to remember what they have to deal with. I could do double duty as instructor (RHed Niles) and student (lefty) and simultaneously analyze what the (real) physical dilemmas were and figure out the remedies. And it also became apparent how deficient a lot of the beginner materials out there really are. Written by people who can't remember and distinguish (anymore) between the degrees of difficult. From 10,000 feet, the beginner terrain looks pretty smooth and easy, but the grunt's eye ground level view is a whole lot different.


Some interesting side effects. You can actually feel your brain getting rewired*. Also, I found playing LHed had a mood mellowing effect. Then I found that it became much easier to intuitively play (RHed) in alternate tunings, or to pick up a different instrument. The subconscious mind seemed to sort out the new fretboard maps by itself. RHed fingerpicking abilities increased substantially without practicing (fingerpicking). Also, I found that I had much more control playing viola - the bow started doing what my mind wanted to hear it do. (without practice). Became fairly easy to read upside-down type. Interesting what new unexpected things began traveling over those new neural routes.

*Playing mandolin while kicking bass lines on organ bass pedals and drum kit patterns with the other foot is also a real brain stretcher. A few hours messing with some New Orleans groove, or some James Brown funk, and you'll get "taffy brain" for awhile afterwards. A sure tip-off that the neurobics are giving you a workout, from my experience, is that your field of vision really widens out (or maybe it's that the brain is able to more fully process and register the peripheral vision) with enhanced 3-D. Also temporarily messes with the speech center.

Incidentally, to further the self-experimentation begun with the LHed playing, I started to mess with the flute in order to get some insights into the process of mentally mapping out a new and unfamiliar instrument. Any stringed instrument was too familiar.....it just became a "mando" with more strings, different tuning etc....a variation on the known.

Besides always digging the instrument (flute), I really liked getting long notes, having much more articulation/phrasing/tone control, and basically having something much more expressive (imo) in my hands. Plus I know I'll never get a request for "Rocky Top"! Also because it's breath driven, the instrument feels much more of an extension of the body/ear - much more of a mind-meld, trance mentality required. It's now the instrument I spend most of my time on. I'll pick up a mandolin from time to time, usually to check on possible deterioration of my mando chops. Minimal RHed. LHed....I think my playing might actually have improved! (Possible rationale....you have to keep breathing playing the flute...and if the tunes and breathing patterns become linked, they stay linked regardless of the instrument. So, there's probably less breath holding when playing LHed, translating into less tension = more fluidity, and thus, a subtle improvement.) Actually, when I do pick up a mando, it's just as likely that it'll be LHed as RH.

My lefty playing is much more basic than playing RHed, but then I've played RHed over 30 years and LHed for 5 or 6. If it's in my mind, I can play it, though not at the same tempo or with the same levels of finessse. But if one ends up in some slow jam - it's more fun and interesting to play LHed. (I used to detune by 1/2 step on the righty in those situations and play stuff in D out of Db or Eb fingerings.)

But to get back to the "Which side should one play from?". I've messed with it from both sides, and I have to say, "I'm not really sure". Perhaps at some intermediate/advanced level, it may not make that much difference anymore. I honestly don't know - and the ambidexterity effects blur the issue further. But I can tell you...there is a difference, but it's something that is hard to verbalize. In light of this, I admit I have a problem with someone who's only done it one way expressing such self-assured opinions about what is "best".

Niles H

[SGraham]

Niles,
Thanks for the very interesting and candid reply to mando.player's question.

"Think about this: how many right-handed players on the Cafe (or the mando-world) have voluntarily (without havin some injury or dystonia force them to) put in substantial time time learning to play lefty?"

I don't personally know any, and I agree that it would be a valuable perspective sharpener for the teacher. As for the other reasons for the R/L shift, I'll have to try them myself. So many interesting ideas--so little time right now to explore them.

The personal anecdotes such as BT Walker's and mando.player's are intriguing.

I think I'll send mom a link to this thread. Her son should start hanging out here anyway.

[mando.player]

Glad I didn't use the word "best" in my posts

Niles, your last post was very insightful. Thanks for sharing that info.

--- I've got a softball game tonight and am very thankful to be playing 1st base Although I'll be batting righty.

[victor seal]

I am left handed and when my older brother was teaching me guitar, he switched the strings around on his old Airline guitar. I am giving my age away now. When I was about 21 my new bride went out and surprised me with a new Crestwood guitar for my birthday. It was right handed. I made the transition to playing right handed with no problems and at 58 years old, I am glad I did. I still do everything else left handed.