Another finish questian

[big h]

Ok, Is there tone difference in a Gloss or Satin lacquer?

[Rick Turner]

If the film thickness is the same, I'd say no.

[Tony Francis]

IS there usually a film thickness difference?

[lenf12]

That depends on the finish being applied, how it is applied and the number of coats of that finish. Typically, the more coats of the finish you apply, the more muted will be the tone/volume of your mandolin.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[sunburst]

I don't know about "usually", but...
It takes skill to apply and buff a thin layer of lacquer with no surface imperfections. It takes even more skill to prepare the surface of an instrument so that a thin layer of lacquer can be applied and buffed to a high gloss with no surface imperfections.
Developing the skill to prepare the surface and apply the finish and buff it to a high gloss takes time and it takes some amount of talent, and that doesn't come easily, especially in a high production situation with employee turn over. The easiest ways to get around the problem of being able to keep and afford the skill to apply high quality high gloss finishes in a production situation are 1) apply the lacquer heavily so the finish film is very thick and can be more easily buffed and 2) add a flattener to the finish so it doesn't have to be buffed and so that it minimizes the appearance of surface imperfections and so that a minimal thickness of finish can be applied.

A very thick lacquer film can affect sound, so #1 above can result in instruments that don't sound as good as they might with a thinner lacquer film. That might be a reason why less expensive instruments have the reputation of sounding better with "satin" finishes than with gloss.

A mandolin prepared and finished by a skilled luthier can have a very thin lacquer film whether it is high gloss or satin lacquer so there is little or no difference in the sound.

[Dale Ludewig]

Yep. No difference in sound. Seems like people should do some searching on the net re: what makes the difference between gloss and satin. It's stearates! It's been discussed over and over: Why does my satin finished mando start to get glossy? Look it up. I've started using a finish that is satin, what I use on my furniture. Four coats. High solids. I can take it to the buffing wheel, after a little sanding, 600 - 1000 grit, and the hit it. It can come out like glass and the manufacturer says it's going to stay that way. The gloss is only on the surface, ya know. And this is not polyester and UV cured.

[sunburst]

Dale, When I do a "satin" finish I use silica powder for a flattener, not stearates, and thought it does tend to rise to the surface of each coat, it ends up distributed within the finish. It can be rubbed to a gloss, but not a true high gloss because the silica refracts light within the finish. I use the same silica for lacquer, varnish, or shellac.

[Dale Ludewig]

John, Hmm. good point.
The thing I don't like about satin finish is that they tend to make the grain of the wood less visible as you build up the coats. Then you get the gloss from rubbing on the finish and the inherent blotchy look.
I don't know of the difference between silica powder, which I have no familiarity with by that term. Maybe it's the same stuff? I do know if I add the "satinizer" stuff, great term isn't it?, I can turn the gloss down. We may be talking about the same chemical. I do know this: you better stir it up big time in your finish. And all of us know that if you rub on the satin finish it will get glossy. I recently have started using a product from Chemcraft- Opticlear 900. It's satin. But I can take the finish (4 coats, no witness marks) and buff it to a gloss that will blow even 3651 out of the water. 4 coats! Not 16 or so and I can buff out the next day. According to the company and my distributor, I can do this and it will last. So you got your satin finish for furniture, and then turn around and buff it to a gloss that looks like glass. I'll keep you posted.
You know, Dow Chemical I think it was that said : " better living through chemistry". I'm not convinced, but this is very interesting. But then they also developed Napalm. I'm not trying to get into politics here, and I'm not going there. I mean to offend no one, but thought this info might be of interest.
We'll see.............as to the results of the product. I'm quite excited and feel no reason to not share it with the rest of us.

[Rick Turner]

When I shoot pore filled satin finishes (as opposed to oil-like satin...), I do my build coats with clear polyester, sand it dead flat to 320, and then try for one very even thin coat of satin urethane.

[big h]

Ok thanks!