Bluegrass Band Timing/Togetherness

[HurleyRidge]

I'd like to know others thoughts and experiences on how to keep timing in a band? How to communicate that to other members when it seems they are pushing the tempo. And what do you think about "togetherness" versus playing perfect timing. I was told once that if I had perfect timing and did not listen to the rest of the band and play together that it would not do anygood, that I needed to learn to play together and that meant sometimes that the tempo would vary through out a song. I was told to listen to everyone else and especially the bass player. So how do you do this and at the same time "drive" the band or have a driving sound. I'm speaking mostly of rhthm. Thanks, Glenn

[earthsave]

Practice, Practice, Practice. I have terrible time and will tend to push a song to the tempo I hear in my head.

[John McGann]

A band needs to be like-minded and realistic about goals. If everyone is willing to practice with a metronome at home and during band rehearsals, they will not only get better time for themselves, but will develop the crucial ability of learning to listen outside of themselves. This is one element that makes good bands sound great.

Practicing without that awareness probably won't give the desired results.

[CES]

When you're chopping, you really have to play off the bass and vice-versa...

I think good, steady rhythm is one of the hardest things to consistently get right, and I'd agree that if you don't listen and adapt to one another that it can get ugly quickly...

As posted, "practice, practice, practice." It's just one of those things you have to work out with those whom you play. Just make sure you try to redirect them constructively (and be willing to redirect yourself if need be), or that can get ugly quickly, too...

Just noted that John posted while I was typing...what he said!

[D C Blood]

Sometimes good bluegrass needs to "breathe", maybe sort of "ebb and flow".
A lot of times, even in the best of bands, when the vocals start the tempo will ease very slightly, then pick up again when the instrumentals begin. And, unless the slowing is waaay too much, it isn't a bad thing. In my opinion, this adds a "drive" to the music, instead of a mechanical, metronomic timing. I used to play in a band that used a drum machine behind all our songs. Timing was good, but the artificialiy added a forced feeling to the music. Just like using a "click track" on a recording. I personally like the little drive feeling when the music picks up after the vocal...I'm also not crazy about instrumentals being played a t such a high BPM rate or "120%" ...It just sounds jumbled up and "frantic".

[D C Blood]

Oh yeah, and you can still have the "groove" with mando chop and bass lines and still have the little breathing space...

[OldSausage]

This is an old thread but I wanted to reanimate it to ask a question about what John McGann suggested in his post. I've been working with a band that needs to tighten up its rhythm but I've never tried getting a band to practice along with a metronome before, and I'm wondering if anyone else here has any tips about doing it. I'm also wondering if I should amplify the metronome, or just have everyone play quietly enough to hear it. Also if there are any particular exercises you can do with a band to work on our rhythm.

There are two problems I'm trying to address, one is slowing down as the song progresses, and the other is general lack of groove within a bar. Maybe it's a lot to do, but the people are all very smart and willing and I think if we could figure out a way to address these problems effectively we could probably solve them.

Thanks for any help or suggestions you can offer.

[Mandolin Mick]

I've only played with a metronome in private but never had the guts to bring one to a band practice. I'd feel like I was calling the band out. I guess I would think that if a band needs a metronome it lacks the basic skills required to be a band. Just my opinion. But there's certainly nothing wrong with it; if the band is mature enough to handle it ... Whatever helps us to be better musicians!

To the original question, The basic beat is kept by the bass playing on the 1 & 3 and the mandolin chop on the 2 & 4. The guitar ties the two together, while the fiddle & banjo vamp when they aren't soloing. Like any kind of music it takes some bands awhile to gel while others have that magic from the 1st song.

[Paul Kotapish]

Tempos, groove, and timing all tend to breathe naturally on stage, but practicing together (and separately) with a metronome is a great way to make find out whether your group is "breathing" together or not.

Whenever one of my bands isn't satisfied with the way the rhythm isn't working on something, we bring out the electronic arbitrator and work with it for a while. Once we've agreed on the right tempo (beats per minute) and we can play along with the machine comfortably all the way throught the piece a few times, we usually find that our performances without the metronome improve, too.

It can, however, be a pretty stressful experience, and it will pretty quickly point out any weak spots you might have.

I would highly recommend amplifying the click so that nobody is straining to hear it. And if you have access to a Dr. Rhythm or similar beat box, use that so that the sound is a little more musical--more like having a drummer with perfect time sitting in with you rather than a nasty little clicking machine. And a machine with a blinking light helps, too. Integrating audio and visual cues will improve your personal and ensemble timing.

When sound conditions are not perfect on stage, I often try to make use of visual cues from the rest of the band to make sure that I'm sitting right in the middle of the groove. That's one reason why it's better not to get lost in the sound with your eyes closed--stay alert and focused and paying attention.

One final suggestion about playing on stage--avoid listening to yourself too much. You need to be mindful and careful of what and how you are playing--of course--but your ears and eyes should be paying more attention to what's going on with the other members of the band--particularly the players that have the deepest, most unswerving sense of time.

Good luck. It's a lifetime commitment.

[OldSausage]

Thanks for those very useful suggestions Paul.

[fishdawg40]

We used a metronome at practice for a while and it worked wonders. We don't so it all the time but it sure tightened us up. Mr. McGann's suggestion is right on. Each player needs to practice it at home then it will be much easier to practice it with the band. I suggest you amplify the click or else it will be very difficult.

John McGann mentioned this band exercise to me (haven't tried it yet); have the whole band playing in one room with the metronome, then have each member leave the room, all the while still playing, then try to come back to the room and the click and still be in time.

John is that correct?

I was inspired, still am, by the Hartford Stringband. They had some serious groove. Listen to them if you haven't already and try to let it seep in. That is rhythm and groove at it's finest.

I think Hartford used a metronome till the very end.

[Mike Bunting]

I chatted once with Mike Marshall about getting students to use their metronomes. He commiserated with me as to how difficult that was, saying he had a bunch of students who wanted to play like Thile, not getting that Thile doesn't practice at all without a metronome. It is easier to find a groove if everyone plays in time. Remember the five T's.

[Rob Gerety]

Practice with a metronome has made a world of difference in my playing and I don't think it steals the life from the music. But however you do it everyone has to play tight together - nothing is more important.

[farmerjones]

Sure, you do have to listen to each other. But sometimes i wish the bass wouldn't. If you've got a rock solid bass, that's a whole lot of good glue. If your bass man tends to gets "infected" you're toast.

If a band were recording, they'd probably use a click track, so why not practice for live gigs the same way? It's honing your craft.

Try practicing and playing tunes with stops in them. These tend to expose those rythm problems. And they sound oh so sweet when you nail them. People walk away saying, "Man, that band was tight!" Because the stops show it off.

[JeffD]

I had the experience with a band where we practiced all sitting in a circle in a small room, plenty of eye contact. Then our performance was standing in a line, where eye conctact was really awkward.

It really put our timing off.

Practice it the way your going to play it.

[onassis]

Jeff, this is the exact problem I've been having! I've started playing with a group recently (my first experience with an acoustic combo), and going from practicing in a circle to performing in a straight line is throwing me. All of my previous bands have been electric, with a kit pounding it out in the back, so timing was never an issue.

Also, playing in a stage formation really tells on how well I know the material. I hadn't realized how much I was relying on visual cues in a lot situations, whether for timing, dynamics, or even to cheat on not-so-well-memorized chord changes.

I think I'm gonna try and talk a couple of the guys into practicing with the metronome as a duo or trio, then, if that's not too painful, take it to the group. Good thread!

[Bigd18]

so have everyone face away from each other until you can "feel" it without looking.

[Nolan]

I'd like to know others thoughts and experiences on how to keep timing in a band? How to communicate that to other members when it seems they are pushing the tempo.

I bring a keyboard to practice and hook it to an amp. I'll set a tempo for a song and ask everyone to tap their foot while they are playing then I watch their feet. If their foot is flailing all over the place or just randomly tapping I just loose it and jump all over them for their rhythm problems and ask them how they expect their right hand to play in time if their foot can't even tap to to the 1 and 3 . If they don't quit the band right on the spot then they usually are open enough about rhythm issues to actually go home and work with a metronome. If they do quit then problem solved right? If it turns out everyone can play really well with the keyboard and tap their feet in time then it's usually obvious that I'm the cause of the rhythm problems! When that happens I try and put the keyboard away quickly before I'm discovered.
Seriously, I've found that 99% of people having SOME rhythm issue... but lots of folks think, "I've been playing for 30 years! I'm WAY beyond tapping my foot and having to think about rhythm"

[Paul Kotapish]

I've found that 99% of people having SOME rhythm issue... but lots of folks think, "I've been playing for 30 years! I'm WAY beyond tapping my foot and having to think about rhythm"

One constant with almost all of the great players I've met and talked with about this is that they consider the quest for excellent rhythm and timing to be a lifelong journey. Most of them swear by the metronome as their most important practice tool.

While there are some great players who can't tap their foot in time for beans, the players with really heavy, deep time usually have a foot tap that you could depend on to set a watch.

[Rob Gerety]

I played a small fair gig last summer. I was playing rhythm guitar and there was a piano player playing rhythm as well. I was set back on my heels when the piano player announced that no one would be allowed to tap their foot because it would be too loud and would put the piano player off her rhythm. I complied. Our rhythm went in the toilet.

[Nolan]

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I've learned a few things this past year in regards to timing in a bluegrass band.

1. If the rhythm guitar accents the 2 and 4 too much it pushes and pulls with the mandolin.
I think that's why a lof of players now accent the 1 beat with a heavy strum.

2. Just stick to a simple chop on the mandolin. Just a nice "Chick". Not a "CHIKA CHIKA" or anything else.

3. duh duh DUH duh duh DUH duh duh DUH duh duh DUH duh duh DUH duh.
Say that while tapping your foot and accent the caps (It's two measures of 4/4)... that's what the banjo has to do. No popcorn maker sounding rolls.

4. you gotta have a rock solid bass player.

Paul, you have some really good insight into this issue.....

[Mike Bunting]

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I've learned a few things this past year in regards to timing in a bluegrass band.

1. If the rhythm guitar accents the 2 and 4 too much it pushes and pulls with the mandolin.

One sees way too many of these players. I avoid them if I can, I hate playing BG with players of a rock and roll mentality. I'm always amazed that there are so many guitarists around my town who I admire greatly as players, but cannot play BG rhythm to save their souls.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Usually a mandolin can´t drive a band and can´t pull a band together rythmically. That´s the bass players and the guitar players job. (Opinion stated by Jimmy Gaudreau at a workshop) I found that to be true with the exeption of players extraordinaire like Bill Monroe.

If your music goes in and out of sync you´d have to focus on who´s the "culprit". Sometime it´s just one player, sometimes it´s more than one. Sometime it´s a lack of general consensus with regards to the music.

I also found out that in a band one person has to somewhat be the conducter (like in a concert ensemble). Only the greatest players seem to be able to interact so flawlessly that they come up with music while communicating (nonverbally but musically) with each other.

[John McGann]

Usually a mandolin can´t drive a band and can´t pull a band together rythmically. That´s the bass players and the guitar players job. (Opinion stated by Jimmy Gaudreau at a workshop) I found that to be true with the exeption of players extraordinaire like Bill Monroe.

Another way to put it is if the bass player and/or guitar player have bad time, no mandolin player can save them.

If their time is so bad they can't play to a click, why would they be able to play to a human, unless the human is rushing/dragging with them (you know that beast, the Russian Dragon!?!)

"Listen to the bass player" is great advice IF the bass player has good time...the band is only going to be as strong, rhythmically, as it's weakest link. If the bassist is a refugee from another instrument who doesn't focus on groove too often, the whole band will wobble from that shaky foundation on up.

A band that doesn't play barn-burning tempos but that has a really tight groove is going to sound better than a band on it's collective tippytoes trying to squeeze out music as fast as they can (I speak from experience here and have the calloused tippytoes to prove it!)

I also found out that in a band one person has to somewhat be the conducter (like in a concert ensemble). Only the greatest players seem to be able to interact so flawlessly that they come up with music while communicating (nonverbally but musically) with each other.

If more 'unfamous' players focused on time, there'd be a lot more of that kind of musical ESP going around. I said it before and it bears repeating: one of the benefits of thinking about time feel is that it teaches you to listen outside yourself and truly become part of a greater whole in a band context.

Once again proving that your ears are ultimately your most important acquisition- not MAS or GAS, let's call it EAS (but not out loud!)

[AlanN]

...the band is only going to be as strong, rhythmically, as its weakest link.

A resounding Yes!