cedar top- the good and bad

[ira]

Hi,

looking at a cedar top/mahogany back and side..
never owned cedar ...like how it sounds, but i've heard things about projection issues and durability...could those in the know give me a clue...
i am not delicate with instruments and don't want instantly destroyed and would like some volume along with a sweet tone..
thanks for the anticipated replies.
peace,
ira

[mandolinbill1949]

It will sure keep the insects away ceadar has a natural insect repellant.

[Dave Hanson]

Fylde in the UK have long made cedar topped instruments, I had a Fylde cedar topped mandolin for many years, a friend of mine has it now and it still sounds great and is as solid as ever.

Dave H

[Michael Lewis]

Weber

[jim_n_virginia]

I don't like cedar tops that much. Besides being a much softer wood than spruce and more prone to dings and dents.

To MY ears cedar has a softer more muffled sound. Now if you are looking for that sound thats great but for an all around general mandolin I like spruce.

Now I do own a cedar top mandolin but it is an octave mandolin and I was looking for that deep softer tone.

[testore]

The Monteleone model I made with cedar is not soft at all. It is extremely hard stuff and the mandolin is very loud and has a ton of quality.I don't like to make a blanket statement about a species. I have found that the source of the tree is more important than the species. I don't like Oregon sitka for example. BUT I have seen some from Alaska that was incredible. Every log is different even within the same forest.

[Spruce]

The Monteleone model I made with cedar is not soft at all. It is extremely hard stuff and the mandolin is very loud and has a ton of quality.I don't like to make a blanket statement about a species. I have found that the source of the tree is more important than the species. I don't like Oregon sitka for example. BUT I have seen some from Alaska that was incredible. Every log is different even within the same forest.

Yep...

Cedar can be very soft, and has a reputation of being so...

But it doesn't have to be...

The wood in the Webers is as hard to the fingernail as any Sitka, so you can throw that myth out the window...

I like the hard-to-the-fingernail cedar a lot, and tend to only bring that stuff back to the barn....

Oh, and every Western red cedar tree produces wood that splits perfectly straight, which is a huge advantage over say--any species of spruce--which may produce one tree in 25 that splits straight...

So-ooo, there's potentially a lot of cedar "tonewood" kicking around out there....

[ira]

thanks so much for the feedback...one last question..what about the truth/myth about cedar not "opening up" i know that an instrument opening up in sound is a controversial thing anyway, but i've sure seen it in my instruments...is the cedar thing true in anyone's experience.

thanks again...
ira

[foldedpath]

thanks so much for the feedback...one last question..what about the truth/myth about cedar not "opening up" i know that an instrument opening up in sound is a controversial thing anyway, but i've sure seen it in my instruments...is the cedar thing true in anyone's experience.
thanks again...
ira

You're stepping in very murky waters here. If you want to dive into the deep end, check out the classical guitar forums where cedar vs. spruce are the two classic alternatives for soundboards. I'm not sure you're find any concensus though, because that corner of the instrument world suffers from the same lack of objective, controlled testing as the mandolin world when it comes to "opening up" issues. One day, someone will do enough objective testing to establish it as a general principle, or else debunk the myths (or at least the degree of the claims, which are sometimes extreme).

Either way, at best I think it's a distraction when choosing an instrument. At worst, it can lead people to select instruments they're not 100% happy with, thinking that the ideal tone they're looking for will magically appear down the road. How many times do you hear people say "and it will only get better over time" when discussing a new mandolin? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you wanted better, then why not get a better mandolin right now? You could get hit by a bus tomorrow, you know?

If I believed that all instruments opened up and sounded drastically better after 10 years, I would never buy a brand-new instrument. If everyone thought that way, the luthier business would collapse overnight.

So in that context, speaking only for myself, it's irrelevant whether the conventional wisdom is true: that "cedar starts out sounding good and doesn't improve over time, while spruce take a while to open up and will sound as good as/better than cedar in X number of years." I don't care. I want an instrument that sounds good now, and I've never had much trouble (other than financial) in finding luthiers who can build instruments that sound great from day one. If there's something in the opening up idea, then that's gravy. But I don't rely on it, and it was never a factor in deciding that I wanted a cedar nylon string guitar, or a redwood mandolin. I was going for the tonal qualities.

I bought my cedar-topped nylon string guitar from a luthier I knew had experience with the tonewood (Steve Holst), and likewise the redwood mandolin (Jiri Lebeda). The guitar is now 4 years old, the mandolin is 2 years old. The guitar and the mandolin sounded great when I got them, and they still sound great to me. Actually they sound a little better now, because I'm better as a player that I was back then, so who knows? Instrument or player improvement? So this probably isn't that helpful. Choose an instrument that sounds good to your ears right now, and you'll have nothing to lose.

P.S. on durability, both my cedar guitar and redwood mandolin are as resistant to fingernail dings as my spruce-topped instruments. It's all in the wood selection by the builder. I've seen some cheap classical guitars with cedar tops that ding easily. If you're buying from a builder who knows what they're doing with cedar, this shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure it isn't the very first cedar instrument off the line, in an otherwise all-spruce shop.

[allenhopkins]

Only cedar-top I have is a Taylor XX-MC "grand auditorium" size steel-string guitar. I heard the CW* about cedar not needing to "open up," but not being as resonant as a "played-in" spruce top. All I can say is that the Taylor sounded full and resonant from the first day I had it, that the top seems as hard as any of my spruce-top guitars, and that it was my main axe for 11 years (1994-2005) before I acquired my current "fave," a 00-42 conversion of a 1940 Martin 00-28G. In that time it did improve a bit in sound to my ears, so perhaps the cedar "played in" a bit.

But, as always, anecdotal experience based on playing a very limited spectrum of instruments, should be generalized into a universal rule very gingerly. I haven't played 50 cedar-topped instruments vs. 50 spruce tops, so, as they say, YMMV.

*conventional wisdom

[jim_n_virginia]

what about the truth/myth about cedar not "opening up"
ira

Ira I have heard many a old cedar topped guitar that has opened up wonderfully. I may not like cedar on a mandolin but but on guitars they can be magical. Some of the best finger picking guitars I have ever heard in my life were cedar topped.

I am no expert and Bruce would know more than me but I kinda think that just about any of the woods used for instruments will open up in time.

[jim_n_virginia]

The Monteleone model I made with cedar is not soft at all. It is extremely hard stuff and the mandolin is very loud and has a ton of quality.I don't like to make a blanket statement about a species. I have found that the source of the tree is more important than the species. I don't like Oregon sitka for example. BUT I have seen some from Alaska that was incredible. Every log is different even within the same forest.

I didn't say that ALL cedar is soft or didn't mean to imply it, I meant that generally the consensus is that cedar softens the sound and is a softer wood than the woods normally used for tops.

Also your Monteleone might have a soft cedar top with a super hard finish. I wish I could hear it I but it is awesome.

And I can hear the difference between a cedar topped guitar and a spruce top guitar like night and day.

[f5loar]

I know luthier CE Ward of NC made several F5s with cedar tops. The grain pattern was rather funky but they sounded pretty decent.

[testore]

Jim,
No, it is as hard a piece of top wood as I have ever used. My finish is a softer shellac based varnish with a little mastic and sandarac. This building thing is not absolutely understood all of the time. Somethings work better than others some of the time and not other times. Combinations of materials, finishes, arching shapes, wood densities and a million other things make generalizations hard to nail down.But that's why it is sooo fun too.

[Spruce]

I didn't say that ALL cedar is soft or didn't mean to imply it...

No, but that is the general consensus out there about the species...

Redwood, too, for that matter...

[LKN2MYIS]

Little late getting in here.

I have a Ratcliff "A" model with a cedar top. The wood is VERY, VERY old cedar.
I am the second owner, and the top is in great condition. And it's a played instrument.

I wouldn't know about how 'soft' cedar is or isn't supposed to be, but there aren't very many marks on my top at all. Wood is wood, and pretty much all tops are going to show marks somewhere down the line if the instrument is played. Nothing wrong with that.

I will say this - it is an incredibly warm sounding instrument. VERY deep, dark tone. Wonderfully loud tone as well. A good combination IMHO (maple back and sides on mine). And I wouldn't hesitate to get another cedar topped instrument. The tone is very special on mine.

Hope this helps.

[ira]

thanks for all the input folks....

[Pavel Havlicek]

Hi,

I have cedar top mandolin - portugal style
I very like the sound of this wood

Then I had bought it, there were 3 kinds of this in the shop
spruce, pine-tree and cedar .
The cedar was the best of these and had more expressive and loudest sound

pavel

[kyken]

I think cedar is a fine wood, I actually prefer it over redwood now because it isn't so brittle. I'm using cedar over spruce on as many of my economandos as I can talk the customer into. They are deeper generally and really good from the start, and as far as improving is concerned, they will , but why wait for improvement when you can have it from day one.

[Michael Gowell]

I find it interesting that when someone says "cedar" in terms of mandolins it seems to be assumed that Western Red Cedar is the species being considered. I live a mile from what is supposed to be the northern-most stand of Atlantic White Cedar on the east coast - this is the species that tinges the streams of the NJ Pine Barrens {and other places, I'm sure} to the color of tea - and north of me (southernmost tip of Maine) is Northern White Cedar. Both are sawn by local mills for boatbuilders. There is no particular difference between Northern and Eastern for boatbuilding that I know of (overall the cedars resist rot and tend to bruise rather than split when striking a rock, etc.) but that doesn't speak to potential differences as tonewoods.

And some of the "cedars" are actually junipers and arborvitaes. It's just worth noting that in an area we discuss passionately - topwoods for instruments - we have long discussions about the relative values of spruces - sitka, red, alpine, etc. - but we're not nearly as precise when discussing cedar.

[barry k]

From my stand point cedar is all good. Like some, I had also heard rumors of breaking in issues with cedar, cant prove it by me. Like any type of mandolin top wood, if carved, tuned and tone bars shaped and positioned correctly, should sound even and responsive and warm. Sound to me is not muffled, but softer, some of the harshness as like with red spruce is knocked out. When carving , it tends to want to tear out a little quicker then other woods, and thickness has to be adequate, because the material is fairly soft, again as compared to spruce top woods. My personal mando has a western red cedar top and Im lovin it.

[Spruce]

And some of the "cedars" are actually junipers and arborvitaes. It's just worth noting that in an area we discuss passionately - topwoods for instruments - we have long discussions about the relative values of spruces - sitka, red, alpine, etc. - but we're not nearly as precise when discussing cedar.

Well.......
None of the Northwest tonewood "cedars"--Western Red, Port Orford, or Yellow--are true cedars....

Popular names tend to screw things up sometimes....

[testore]

Just thought that I'd reopen this thread. The Monteleone model that I mentioned earlier is now the one I'm playing in my band. I have had it for about three months and it has changed a lot.It was always a loud enough mandolin but the quality has changed. It is a broader sound, a little chubby but it didn't lose it's power. And the top end is fuller too,warmer but no loss of cut. Sooooo if anyone is debating on what top wood to use, don't disregard cedar.It's fine stuff.

[billhay4]

Bruce,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Port Orford a cypress, not a true cedar? Same for Yellow, I think.
Bill

[Rob Gerety]

Well, since this thread is back - I might just comment that I was advised by many that I should stay away from cedar when I purchased my last guitar which was intended to be a fairly big bodied loud strummer primarily. But I noticed that several players I know were using cedar topped guitars in the same playing environment to great affect - so I went against the grain and bought a Bourgeois JOM Cedar over Mahogany. The guitar was few years old when I got it but in perfect condition and it had not seen much play time. I'm not positive about this but it does seem that it has loosened up a bit since I have owned it. I have played it hard. Contrary to the popular belief it is a strong, hard, top with tons of headroom and volume. Beautiful full tone. Excellent guitar - my favorite really. It is also a terrific sweet fingerstyle guitar.