Mandolin in Rap Music

[billkilpatrick]

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

3 things:

1. - a joke i heard - probably in the 5th grade - concerns beethoven and a servant girl: while thrashing around, trying to nail down a theme for his 5th symphony, beethoven is disturbed by a servant girl, sent to clean his room. "fraulein!... " he shouts "... sing something; say something - do anything that will inspire me to write my 5th symphony!" "me!?! ... " she responds " ... oh herr beethoven, don't make me laugh! ... ha-ha-ha-haaa ..."

2. - i understand that schoenberg gained inspiration for some of his music by listening to the cadence and - in some cases - the melody contained in people's conversation: like bird song, the natural sounds we humans make, even when sitting in a concert hall, waiting for something to happen.

3. - i once read of an american indian in the 1930's who - when asked what he thought of jazz music - replied: "too many words."

what keeps me from appreciating rap, hip-hop, etc. (assuming there are further, unknown distinctions) is the #!&%* attitude associated with it - ponderous ... heavy ... lumpen-like, bellicose aesthetics with a beat-box beat - the lowest common denominator.

i can't see how an instrument as lively and lyrical; as animated and soulful as a mandolin would have a genuine voice in it.

[delsbrother]

I recently learnt the riffs for Bullet in the Head by RATM. I also discovered it could be sung as a straight bluegrass song.

Now I'm picturing Bill Monroe screaming and shaking out his dreadlocks...

[JEStanek]

I forget where and I didn't find it by a search but a couple years ago, someone posted a link to a video of a member of George Clinton's P-funk All Stars playin an e-mando. It was funky and cool.

Sometimes I see Rap and Hip Hop (two very different genres) as new urbanized evolution of Rock and Roll. It's a music and artform of youth although many of the original Rap acts are now older like me (35-50s). I don't see an acoustic mandolin fitting well into Rap/Hip Hop or whatever the current iteration is called but I see a place for an electric mando for sure.

I've heard plenty of soulful, painful, joyful, social commentary from particular artists. It sure doesn't need to float everyone's boat. Certainly there are bands full of misogyny, hate and despair but that isn't limited only to Rap, I think you can find examples of that in almost any music form. But I'm not going to go looking for it.

Jamie

[tallmike]

Closer to home, Greg Liszt (banjo player of Crooked Still, Bruce Springsteen fame) has a fantastic band called The Deadly Gentlemen, with a new record called the Bast*rd Masterpiece which is an acoustic rap album. Hyperliterate lyrics true to folk themes with a fantastic fiddle/mando/banjo/bass acoustic sound. Check it out (Josh Pinkham plays some pretty sweet mando on those tracks as well).

I'll second the The Deadly Gentlemen suggestion, Bast*rd Masterpiece was my favorite album released last year(...and not only b/c i did the album design). The lyrics, the phrasing/rhyming, and the music composition are all brilliantly done.

[journeybear]

i once read of an american indian in the 1930's who - when asked what he thought of jazz music - replied: "too many words."

Not unlike the line in Amadeus in which the prince complains there are too many notes.

what keeps me from appreciating rap, hip-hop, etc. (assuming there are further, unknown distinctions) is the #!&%* attitude associated with it - ponderous ... heavy ... lumpen-like, bellicose aesthetics with a beat-box beat - the lowest common denominator.

i can't see how an instrument as lively and lyrical; as animated and soulful as a mandolin would have a genuine voice in it.

I agree with you, and I would add that the same can be said about the human voice. I'm admittedly old school about certain things, but I still believe a "song" is supposed to have melody. Among other things a song can do, it should be able to be used to serenade one's sweetheart. I don't see how rap or hip-hop can be used this way. I think rappers have really ruined music by reducing it to the LCD - not just aesthetically, but economically, as since they proved you could sell millions and make millions this way, so cheap and easy to produce, that it quickly got a lot tougher for accomplished musicians to compete. Some of it is OK, and I even have a few albums - Arrested Development, and Ice Cube's Wild Thing, some TLC - because they were about more than posturing. But it really seems like most of it is just that - posturing, angry, bragging, obscene, demeaning - and I'm not about to seek out having my ears beaing assaulted by someone shouting that kind of vehemence to a pounding beat just as vehement.

One argument for rap is that it addresses serious social and political concerns for blacks. But you can say serious things in a song and still do so sweetly. Is there a better summation of serious socio-political issues than Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On?" It was an instant classic, not only because he had a lot to say, but he did it well. It was poetry set to a poignant, memorable melody, with intriguing instrumentation and thoughtful arrangement. Is it any wonder that songs from this era are so often sampled now for rap and hip-hop songs? Never mind what rap did to music in general, what it did to soul music is almost criminal. It seems now that black musicians have two choices these days - rap/hip-hop or pop. Soul music seems to have nearly vanished. Is this the legacy for all the great soul music that poured out of Motown and Stax/Volt and hundreds of small labels in the 60s and 70s?

I'm all for music changing and evolving, but it has to be changing for the better or it's not progress. What I've heard of rap and most hip-hop is just too harsh and off-putting for me to spend any more time with. I may be missing out on some good stuff because of that, but I think not, and I'm willing to forgo that in order to spend what time I devote to music listening to music more to my liking.

BTW, though the title of this thread seems to imply finding a place in rap for mandolin, the question posed by the OP concerned doing mandolin versions of rap. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

[James S]

This is quite an interesting thread! As someone who grew up in the late 80's/early 90's (I'm 26), I was exposed to a lot of hip-hop before I even knew what a mandolin was. I am not sure if this album has been brought up here before, but I was taken back last year when I stumbled up "Gangstagrass," a fusion of new hip-hop with old bluegrass song samples.

Surprisingly, many of the tracks seem to "work" in my ears, but a fair warning: This is *not* for the purists of the board. It also contains very explicit language on certain tracks - so check if the kids are around - but I think that the time and effort it took the producer (Rench) is something to be commended. He is making no money off the project - as it is available for free mp3 download - but I wrote him a year ago to discuss his influences for the album and it seems that his father introduced him to bluegrass when he was young. Add some up-and-coming hip-hop artists and you have an interesting conversation piece: http://gangstagrass.com/

- James

PS - Check out Track 13: It is me or does that intro sounds like it might have been playing from a "Kentucky" mandolin?!

[leathermarshmallow]

The very thought of Mandolin and Rap music in the same sentence gives me a headache.

[fredfrank]

Rap music. The ultimate oxymoron.

[mandolirius]

"Rap", as a descriptive term, seems to have fallen out of fashion. The only people I hear talk about "rap" music are those who probably never listen to it. I'm among them. Hip-hop seemed to come into vogue when rap started to develop a reputation for glorifying violence.

Personally, I have no use for it. For one thing, it's rhythmically boring. For another, it says nothing to me and finally the repetitive cadence of the rhymes makes me want to listen to something...anything else. At the same time, I'm aware that one major rap or hip-hop album will outsell the entire recorded output of all bluegrass albums put together. Go figure.

I once interviewed David Grisman, who gave me a quote I've never forgotten. We were discussing his own music, newgrass, bluegrass and such. At the time, he was dipping his toe into the mainstream world, on Warner Bros., his shows put on by mainstream promoters (for example, he was too big at the time for our local bluegrass assn. in Vancouver to do). I asked if he thought his, and other similar types of music might make it into mainstream consciousness. He replied, "Well, the thing is, most people, like...dig ####."

[Chris Keth]

You know, now that I think about it, I could hear some chops and a really percussive style making it in just the right hip-hop group. I think it's unlikely to ever happen, but I think it could work.

[MnRoss]

Hip Hop not Rap but pretty cool mando playing by Marcy Marxer and Cathy Fink on banjo..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kemCF2NMmaQ

[Patrick Gunning]

I'll second the The Deadly Gentlemen suggestion, Bast*rd Masterpiece was my favorite album released last year(...and not only b/c i did the album design). The lyrics, the phrasing/rhyming, and the music composition are all brilliantly done.

Mike, where did you find that banjo sculpture for the cover? Does that exist or is it an artist's rendering or what?

Also, it was easily in my top 3 records last year.

[journeybear]

Hip Hop not Rap but pretty cool mando playing by Marcy Marxer and Cathy Fink on banjo..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kemCF2NMmaQ

Okay, they did it, but is it any good? Doesn't work for me. Nor for viewers - 1100 visits since it was posted a year ago, April Fool's Day, and only two comments. Not an overwhelming response.

[billkilpatrick]

i liked it - picked up that nice little riff at the beginning, too - but all that "boom-boom ... chikka-chikka" could have just as easily been done with an empty tea-chest and a pair of spoons. cathy fink is great!

[bobby bill]

Hip Hop not Rap but pretty cool mando playing by Marcy Marxer and Cathy Fink on banjo..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kemCF2NMmaQ

I admittedly do not know the difference between hip hop and rap but this does not sound like either to me. What element makes this hip hop? The turntable? Strong beat? Doesn't hip hop have to have dumb nursery rhyme lyrics to go with it . . . or is that just rap?

This just sounds like a twelve bar blues with a funky beat. Please educate an old codger.

[Caleb]

what keeps me from appreciating rap, hip-hop, etc. (assuming there are further, unknown distinctions) is the #!&%* attitude associated with it - ponderous ... heavy ... lumpen-like, bellicose aesthetics with a beat-box beat - the lowest common denominator.

Well said. Whenever I hear this stuff it's always on accident; I'll be at someone's house, or hear it in a store, or hear it being blasted from some kids car stereo. Nothing I ever hear makes me want any further listening. Even when I was a kid in the 80's/early 90's and I'd hear it everywhere it was always the same subject matter: money, sex, dope, violence, repeat.

There is a valid point about the message of social justice, but the people who would need to hear that message are not listening anyway. So in that regard hip-hop/rap is like talk radio: it's mainly preaching to the choir.

[JEStanek]

Actually Snoop Dogg has taken on country in his tribute to Johnny Cash Song "My Medicine" There is a melody present. The video is on you tube with this id ks3w859ujbU.

I still recall, to my horror, from the mid 80s the Mandrel Sisters performed a country Rap on either their variety show or on Hee Haw.

Snoop has also taken on urban Desi (traditional Indian music fused with western elements) with the song Singh is King! Snoop is like the Rapping Willie Nelson given the broad range of collaborations they have done.

People may have (strong) opinions on different genres of music and that is fine. Banishing an instrument from any style or genre is crazy, to me. Instruments are ingredients that can flavor a piece. If a performer finds away to utilize the mandolin's flavor I say go for it. If a hack like me is allowed to use one why can't anyone else?

Jamie

[journeybear]

This just sounds like a twelve bar blues with a funky beat. Please educate an old codger.

Yeah, Marcy looks a bit lost and tries to impose a 12-bar blues structure, which comes and goes. I give them credit for trying, but it seems more like a goof than a real attempt at working something out.

I think what really gets me about this genre is the mechanical steady beat devoid of syncopation, something I've hated ever since the "Hooked On" craze. Sly Stone said, "All we need is a drummer/ For people who only need a beat." He didn't say "All we need is a drum machine," which is what this sounds like.

Several years ago at the Clearwater Folk Festival Pete Seeger did what he called a rap - mostly it was just him playing banjo while he spoke verses someone had written about the foibles of the English language. I bumped into him later and said how that reminded me of George Carlin's work. He didn't know who he was. Too far from his frame of reference, I guess.

[mandolooter]

I forget where and I didn't find it by a search but a couple years ago, someone posted a link to a video of a member of George Clinton's P-funk All Stars playin an e-mando. It was funky and cool.

Eric McFadden....

[onassis]

Couldn't quite figure out how to quote just the last line of journeybears post, but the OP actually wanted to know what rap songs people like to play their mando WITH.

On the current topic, which seems to be the aesthetic value of hip-hop, I'll just say that,IMO, any musical style that achieves this level of popularity is bound to be 99% junk. But within any musical form, there are bound to be true artists, even if their chosen medium isn't everyones cup of tea. It's been a long time since I listened to much hip-hop, but when I did it was very melodic and lyrical groups like De La Soul and A Tribe Called Quest. YMMV, but I think it's real music.

[mandolooter]

Not exactly rap...not exactly a mandolin...but its cool!

[mandolooter]

ooooops

[mandolooter]

Then there's always Joe Craven...rapping with mandolin in hand!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...28317703341415

[AlanN]

and....there is Bling! in mandolins

[tallmike]

Mike, where did you find that banjo sculpture for the cover? Does that exist or is it an artist's rendering or what?

Also, it was easily in my top 3 records last year.

Greg actually owns it. Can't recall if the artist created it specifically for Greg or if Greg sought it out after seeing it somewhere. I've attached a picture of the statue (he calls it "Banjo Man").