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Thread: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

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    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Last night I went to a jam hosted by a local guitar picker's friend. It was at a huge beautiful house set on the water of the Elizabeth River here in Virginia. Huge backyard, beautiful scenery and probably over a 100 people at this party/jam. Great food, free beer the perfect setting for a great bluegrass jam.

    Flyers were sent out advertising it as a BLUEGRASS Hoedown Jam. So a bunch local bluegrass musicians show up who are all pretty good pickers and we are all pretty familiar with each overs tunes from playing at a local Blugreass jams.

    "Bring your favorite Bluegrass instrument" according to the flyer.

    So who else shows up?? You guessed it a saxophone/fiddler! LOL!

    Now at least he was trying to be thoughtful because he didn't play a big saxophone he played a little tiny one he called a soprano sax. I didn't even know a soprano sax existed! Well it probably didn't matter it was a small one because it was as loud as any of the various river craft's horns out on the water! It was surprising loud. It was a TRUE banjo killer! LOL!

    Well the guy you could tell was a very good player but didn't really know any of the tunes we played but he could noodle around all up and down the scales to whatever song or fiddle tune we played.

    My first instinct was just to pack up and leave. But then I am thinking lighten up and have some fun, the guy was just trying to fit in and have some fun in his own way.

    And he didn't play the sax all the time (THANK GOD! LOL) because he played the fiddle sometime and he was pretty good on that.

    Actually he was good on the sax too and one of our group (a fiddler) even made a comment to me that he thought the guy sounded good.

    It occurred to me last night that if the guy would just take a break on the sax as the tunes went around as opposed to playing over top of everyone it probably would have been more enjoyable.

    I was thinking that when a group of people get together to jam it is the same as a group of people sitting in a circle and having a conversation. People take turns talking one at a time and if two people talk at the same time it gets confusing. And if one person talks incessantly nonstop even when other people are talking it then becomes annoying. Music is communication.

    Anyway's as the evening wore on the jam moved inside and eventually I guess it got late and the sax player stopped and we played a little while longer.

    I think all in all we all had a good time and this problem of someone showing up at a bluegrass jam with a non bluegrass instrument (I went to one where a guy showed up with keyboards and LONG extension cord! I LEFT! LOL) is something we ALL have experienced all over the USA at one time or another if you play long enough and go to enough jams.

    Anyway's .... I guess I am done venting! LOL! I try to be a nice guy but it gets harder and harder because I am getting grouchier as I get older. I am turning into my father!

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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Many years ago when I lived on the left coast, I went to an old-time/bluegrass jam and there were two hammered dulcimer players who played constantly, mostly in unison and at one volume level...loud! This was in a standard size living room. Pretty soon there were two jams, the dulcimer players in the living room and everyone else in the kitchen.
    John Kasley
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    Registered User John Rosett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jim_n_virginia View Post
    It occurred to me last night that if the guy would just take a break on the sax as the tunes went around as opposed to playing over top of everyone it probably would have been more enjoyable.:
    Now you know why harmonica players have such a bad reputation.
    "it's not in bad taste, if it's funny" - john waters

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    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    One rung up the scale on the "fish and bicycles" metaphorical combination: Jazz Bassoon.
    Prepare yourself with a pack of Rolaids first...

    Ted Eschliman

    Author, Getting Into Jazz Mandolin

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    Phylum Octochordata Mike Bromley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    No strings? NOT
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    Mark Evans mandozilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Jim, been there, done that. I think nowdays anytime you're in a musical situation not under your control ie; a party, a jam, a festival, these situations are going to develop.

    Like you, when I want to play bluegrass music, I want to play bluegrass music.
    Last time I checked, horns, winds, kazoos, accordians, spoons, washboards, bones, snare drums, 5 gal buckets, mouth harps, wash tub basses, bag pipes, and flutes, were "no part of nothin'' with regards to Bluegrass Music.

    BUT! In the interest of not offending or turning anyone off to bluegrass music I personally try to be tolerant and friendly towards the players of the above named instruments.

    BUT! Everybody has a breaking point! If I get to where "I can't stands no more" , I pack up my axe and commence to drinking and mixing with the non musician types until such time as the picking has returned to normalcy (bluegrass music). HahaHs


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    Phylum Octochordata Mike Bromley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mandozilla View Post
    [these] were "no part of nothin'' with regards to Bluegrass Music.


    You failed to mention bodhrans and djembes. I can think of nothing more irritating than not one, but several of these being whalloped in a bluegrass or old time setting. The rhythmic centre gets destroyed....

    There, I said it.
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    Registered User John Rosett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    A couple of years ago, I attended a jazz jam session at a bar that I hadn't been to before. As I was unloading my mandolin and amp, a guy parked next to me was unloading his bass. He looked at the mandolin case and said "This is a jazz session you know." I assured him that I did, and once we started playing, everything was fine.
    My point is that many of us who play mandolin attempt to stretch the boundaries of what our instrument is capable of in the perception of other musicians. Is it any less acceptable to bring a saxaphone to a bluegrass session than it is to bring a mandolin to a jazz session?
    "it's not in bad taste, if it's funny" - john waters

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Oh well maybe he will invite you to the Dixieland Traditional jazz festivals so you can feel out of place too .

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    garded
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    I guess I just get irritated more by bad musicianship than the instrument. Even though as time's gone on I've gotten more Monroe, less Dawg. There's a guy that has been around for it seems like forever that plays harmonica and is very sensitive, doesn't play over people and if he doesn't know the tune will quietly "practice" until his turn. He's great. But I always see people stiffen up when he comes in.

    There's also an accordion player that I enjoy playing with, believe it or not. She also doesn't play over the top of the jam and being a classical violinist also, she also does these great chord backups that sound like a good fiddle backup like Stuart D. would do. Her breaks are always good too.

    I quit playing amplified music because of drummers. But, there was also a jam I went to that had a great drummer with a full kit, that just used brushes. I actually had fun with that, even though we were playing bluegrass/country. That night we even had a jazz bass player. Good time was had by all. But normally I wouldn't be caught dead in a situation like that. But can you imagine, two acoustic guitars, electric bass, drums, and a mando, and no PA? And everybody could be heard, and nobody stepped on anybody.

    But the ones that drive me nuts more often than not, are rhythm guitar players that are just scrubbin' away, playin' the wrong chords, out of time and tune. For some reason they feel the need to play right next to me, clankin' away. I've packed it in more than once because of them. And these guys are supposed to be into Bluegrass.

    A good musician, no matter what the instrument can fit in. And I'm not talking about being super good. Sometimes I think it has to do more with ego than musicianship. I know folks that have not been playing long but have "it" and are fun to play with. I also know folks that have been playing forever and really just see anybody they are playing with as their backup, and that's all.

    I agree Jim, music is a conversation. And in some ways Bluegrass has more in common with Jazz than it does with say Old Time/Irish/Celtic IMHO. OT sessions strike me like a party where everybody is talking all at the same time. Where Bluegrass and Jazz, when it's your turn you get to say it the way you want. To each their own and it's why I like places where there is more than one jam going on, so everybody gets what they like as I don't expect what I like to be universal.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    My case is different in that our jams are really a mixture of bluegrass, old time, celtic, and as the night wares on even some broadway show tunes.

    Regular instruments include fiddles, guitars, banjos, mandolins, piano or keyboards

    Semi regular instruments include hammered dulcimer, penny whistle, five string fiddle, string bass

    Not so regular but hardly rare instruments include dobor, harmonica, accordion, cello, bodhran, autoharp

    Somewhat rare, clarinet, hardanger fiddle, acoustic bass guitar, celtic harp

    Rare, but a lot of fun, lowland small pipes, djembe, tongue drum, conga drum

    I don't understand that anyone would leave a jam because of the type of instruments. I might leave because of insensitive musicians, but if its an open jam, I am open to what arrives. And if the unorthodox instruments are well played by jammers who are sensitive to the music and to playing with each other, a good time is assured.

    Yes not all instruments sound good together, but a jam is for playing with other people - the emphasis is the playing. Sounding great is the perview of a band and a concert venue.

    I understand it was billed as a bluegrass jam, but is the orthodoxy of the music so important that you wouldn't have fun with the other instruments?

    But we are all different. I enjoy playing the mandolin more than I enjoy any particular type of music on the mandolin, and I can have fun at any hodge podge jam because I get to play mandolin.
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    Registered User tango_grass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    There's a guy who shows up at Wintergrass, and at 2am Sunday morning(sat night) in the lobby he pulls out his Soprano sax and wails!! Greatest thing ever! What he does is tie a small piece of string on the spit button, thus making it a "stringed" instrument!

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    Registered User John Rosett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by tango_grass View Post
    There's a guy who shows up at Wintergrass, and at 2am Sunday morning(sat night) in the lobby he pulls out his Soprano sax and wails!! Greatest thing ever! What he does is tie a small piece of string on the spit button, thus making it a "stringed" instrument!
    There was a guy named Larry that came up from San Fransisco to Folklife Festival in Seattle with his soprano in the 80's and 90's. Is it him?
    "it's not in bad taste, if it's funny" - john waters

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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    So then the Scottish Piper walks in the door.....

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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    For me, It's the player, not the instrument. And listening instead of just playing. A couple of memorable jams included a flute, and a tuba. I have found that it is always enjoyable to play with good musicians. Life is too short to worry about weather something fits the "mold" or not.

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    Registered User Chris Biorkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Jim, that's a hilarious story. I'll have to remember to bring a French horn to a jam just to see the looks I get.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    As a teenager I played in a community string band - styrfoam imitation straw hats, bow ties, 7 banjos, two mandolins, and either a tuba or a tenor sax. We played out a bit. Events where the audience was there for some other reason and had to listen to us.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Mandol'Aisne Daniel Nestlerode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    I'm with Tony P. Playing is all about the ears. When players of unorthodox instruments join what is usually a Bluegrass jam --though no jam I've never been to here in CA has excluded folk, old timey, gospel, or country music-- I raise an eyebrow. But I also give them the benefit of the doubt.

    I've been at "BG" jams with dulcimers of both the hammered and lap varieties, autoharp, harmonica players, "musical" saw players, and percussionists including bodhran, djembe, hambones, spoons, and washboards. The good musicians hung around and we were rewarded for the experience. The not so good ones either moved on or stayed when I left.

    Often the reason these folks and their instruments are hard to take is because they have no knowledge of the general unwritten rules operating in a BG jam. And maybe just a word to the wise would make things 100% better. Jazz and blues jams are a very different beast from BG jams. Rock has no jam tradition to speak of. So unfamiliarity will breed what appears to be rudeness.

    I think the most difficult handicap is not your instrument but your prejudices. Folks who walk away from unorthodox instruments at a BG jam simply because those instruments are unorthodox are missing out on the possibility of a great new experience. [And personally, I'm working in getting over a prejudice against autoharp. Exposure to good players helps!]

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    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    [QUOTE=jim_n_ I try to be a nice guy but it gets harder and harder because I am getting grouchier as I get older. I am turning into my father! [/QUOTE]

    Jim, That is a funny story! And don't worry about getting grouchier. I am right there with you brother! My son told me recently he is having the same thing. He said it seems like everyone gets on his nerves!

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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Andy Statman pulled off some fine bluegrass saxaphone on some early recordings with Breakfast Special!!!

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by DNestler View Post
    Often the reason these folks and their instruments are hard to take is because they have no knowledge of the general unwritten rules operating in a BG jam.
    Rules which, if you listen for awhile, are not that hard to get.

    Again insensitive musicians playing more than listening is always a problem, even if they play a Gibson F-5 MM.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Mark Evans mandozilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    Good discussion guys!

    I guess I'd prefer that a jam that is clearly a BG jam have only BG instruments but I am fairly tolerant. As long as the oddball instrument/musician is unobtrusive, tries to follow the BG rules (?) and doesn't step on any toes I can live with it but again only to a point.

    Someone mentioned musicianship. Most, no, all of the jams I have attended are a mix of musical abilities from relative beginners to pro level. Sometimes I think we forgot what it was like to be a Noob. I try hard to recall that noobness I once had and help the noobs out as much as I can.

    I'm sure most of us do this but there are some who just can't live with beginners or oddballs at jams. To them I say start a band so you have 100% (HaHaHa) control over the instruments, genres, and musicianship and therefore won't be annoyed. Remember, it's a jam, and it won't always be the way you want it to be...Dangit!


  23. #23
    garded
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    I don't know about y'all, but when I started, there was no jam etiquette. And no matter how hard we tried to do like going around the circle to do let each person pick different stuff, there was always a jam buster who didn't like to not be in charge. That has mostly gone away from what I see. And good riddance.

    But I still see folks who insist on starting a song they don't know, or picking a song that's an obvious jam buster. The Bluegrass books are chalk full of stuff that even if you don't have a big library, you can get the gist of pretty quick. But why some have to pick an obscure song they don't know, thinking everybody will join in and help 'em out continues to mystify. If you know the song good enough and the group has the skill to follow, I'm all for a new song(or old) I've never heard. Don't mess with it if it ain't gellin' and stay away from the obvious jam busters is my jam motto.

  24. #24
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    I have encountered the following at bluegrass and old-time jams, with the noted results:

    > Tin whistle: Worked out well because the lady with the whistle was just an incredibly good musician, a symphony flute player with one of best ears and musical taste I can imagine. I think she could work in anywhere with any kind of music.

    > Bones: Has worked out well when the players were good, when not, then not so much

    > Musical saw: One of the worst musical experiences of my life.

    > Electric piano: Almost as bad as the saw.

    > Washboard with a kazoo attached: Almost as bad as the piano!

    > Button accordion: Worked out OK because the player was good and knew how to fit in.

    In all fairness, my worst experiences at jams were with people who were playing traditional bluegrass instruments.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saxophone at a Bluegrass jam?!?!?!?!

    In general our weekly jam has no need of any formal ettiquette or rules, most of us have known each other for many years, and in some cases many many years. But we have an open jam held in a public venue - so we have had to be very patient at times.

    About the only rule is that we try and keep it accoustic. An occational electric piano is ok, because, again, its the musician not the instrument, but we have had not so good experience with electric guitar and especially electric bass. It was the musician, sure, but with all that power the musician could easily dominate the jam. And then to hear "well you guys did that Grateful Dead tune so I thought... " well you can imagine.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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