First Build - In the Works

[Steve Etter]

Hi all. I thought it was about time to re-introduce myself and open up my lutherie efforts for the mandolin world to see.

While it appears from my post count that I am new member here, I am have actually been a member for a number of years and, for some reason, lost my identity a while back. Not being a been particularly “active” member on the board, I have never been too bothered by it. Up till now, I tended to stop by every once in a while to lurk about the various message boards and then go pick up my MK for a bit. Recently, though, I decided that my mandolin playing (if you care to stretch the meaning of that word) might need to be offset with mandolin building.

Back in December, I decided to start the journey and build my first F-Style mandolin, from scratch. Now that I am into it by a few months, I have decided to a post some of my progress here on the Café.

Just so you know, I have never built any kind of musical instrument before. This is my first. To get started, I bought two books - “The Ultimate Bluegrass Mandolin Construction Manual” by Roger H. Siminoff and “The Mandolin Manual: The Art, Craft and Science of the Mandolin and Mandola” by John Troughton - and read about every on-line document I could find before starting.

The this and the next few posts will show several pictures of my most recent steps - still a long way to go.



A shot of the soundboard, sides and tone bars all glued together.



And here is where I am as of yesterday. The back is pretty much carved and now I am in the process of basic smoothing and then getting my thicknesses right. This I plan to do from the inside.

If you are interested, I also have a blog that shows all the gory details up to this point. The pictures I am posting here are only a small portion of what I have on my blog. You will find a link to it in my tag-line.

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, or in absolutely necessary, throw tomatoes.

Thanks in advance for the allowing me this indulgence.

Steve

[Steve Etter]

This shows another shot of the tone bars.



And this is right after I cut out the F-holes. You might notice a tiny dark spot on the wood where I have yet to carve the scroll. This is blood. If I can't start doing a better job of keeping my hands in the right places, this will be my signature I am afraid.

[Steve Etter]

Here is where I was learning and practicing my side bending.



And the setup I put together for bending them.

[Steve Etter]

And, finally, where I am with the neck.

The neck is the next place I have to focus once I get the back the way I want it.

As I said before, please feel free to make any suggestions or criticisms you might have. I really value the people here at the Cafe and promise to take it well, really.

Steve

[Lefty Luthier]

I hate to be critical but you have the treble tone bar incorrectly placed. If you have not yet sealed the chamber up, I urge you to reposition that tone bar a bit nearer the centerline. Check your plans for the exact position.

[Steve Etter]

I will check it. Thank you so much.

Ok. I went back and checked, and you are absolutely right. It appears that I marked the correct position for the top of that bar, but then used the lower point reference for the bass bar. Because the book shows the bar position from a top view perspective rather than from underneath (as you look at it when actually placing the bars) I think that is how I got confused.

Now all I have to do is get the bar off without causing major damage to the soundboard.....

[bennyb]

Howdy Steve,
You can take it off with no worries in a few minutes with your trusty finger plane. You'll have to make another of course. Bigger tools are faster, require more attention.

My best, benny

[Steve Etter]

Ah, just destroy the thing and do it again with a new bar. If that's what it takes, that's what I'll do.

My "save-what-you-can" mentality had me locked in to trying to take it off and re-use it. I will probably still try to save it if I can since I am a little short on spruce at the moment.

Thanks,

Steve

[Steve Etter]

Well, I managed to get the bar off by soaking it with water and then covering it with a wet cloth all last night and today. When I came home from work, the bar just snapped right off. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately since it might be an indication of a weak joint to begin with) I also managed to make the soundboard separate from the kerf/side wood. It appears that the lining is still tight to the side, so hopefully I will be able glue them back together and not suffer any serious consequences. Now I wait for everything to dry for a while.

Steve

[ChrisStewart]

Hi Steve,
Just looked over your blog, You've done a pretty good job with it so far. I've also been thinking of building my own so it is nice to see a novice documenting the process. I find once you get familiar with doing (anything) it is easy to take for granted small things which can trip up a less experienced individual. Keep up the good work.

[Lefty Luthier]

Just out of curiosity Steve, how did you clamp the rim to soundboard? I use a continuous heavy plywood ring padded with a strip of old innertube on both sides with carriage bolts spaced every inch. Takes only a couple of minutes to make and really works better than clamps or those little spools that the luthier supply houses sell. You may want to soak the soundboard and remove it for a complete reglue cause there is a lot more to do before you can play your mandolin and it is heartbreaking to have it separate later.

[ChrisStewart]

Also since it has been in contact with the damp cloth over night it may take a considerable amount of time to come back to relative humidity

[Steve Etter]

Chris - Thanks for the kind words. I really hope my experience here will be able to help anyone looking to start their own, even if it means having to "pull my pants down" occasionally to do it. As for drying, I plan to let it dry for many days, probably weeks. I still have more than enough to keep me occupied.

Lefty - I like the sound of your ring. I used the small cello clamps you're talking about (made them myself) - and I agree - they are a pain. I think I will take your advice (again) and go ahead and completely remove the soundboard. Not only will it let me have a better shot at "repair", but I then get the chance to "do it right the first time" - again.

Steve

[pwkellar]

Lefty,
Do you have a pic of the ring? I'm just not picturing it as working all that well. Thank you my friend!

Pat

[Lefty Luthier]

I don't have a pic handy but the rings were made by simply tracing the outline of an F5 on a piece of 1 inch plywood and then taking a compass and tracing a one inch path inside and outside that outline. I then cut them out with a saber saw, drilled 5/16 holes about 1 to 1-1/2 inch apart and stuck 1/4 inch carriage bolts through with washers and wing nuts. Padded it with a strip of innertube. Been using it for years on probably 50 mandolins. One note, clamp in a star pattern to keep the soundboard from slipping around.

[Steve Etter]

This morning I got up, took a look at my soundboard, and sadly I now find that a crack has developed in the glue joint between the two halves of the soundboard. Here are some pictures and, yes, the crack goes clear through.

So now I am wondering - is it reasonable to think I can salvage this soundboard without cutting it apart and gluing it again? Is there another way?

Thanks in advance.

Steve

[Lefty Luthier]

Sad to say, I have never been fully successful repairing a glue joint after shaping the soundboard. One possibility is to use the F-Holes to thread elastic cords through and then clamp the periphery to keep it from buckling but I would not guarantee such a fix to a customer. The real question is why the joint failed in the first place. Was it the wet rag? Insufficient clamping during joining? Or possibly physical flexing while shaping the soundboard. It takes quite a bit of force to drive even a very sharp finger plane. For that reason years ago I began shaping soundboards with a 36 grit disk in my 4 1/2 inch grinder. It just melts the wood off with almost no pressure.

[Steve Etter]

I suspected that was going to be the case. I will probably give it a try anyway if for no other reason than just to try (and possibly learn something).

I am pretty sure that there the crack was not there until the soaking and all the pictures I have seem to indicate the same. In any event, you can be sure the next joint will be smooth as a babies behind and that I will use significant clamp pressure while gluing. Furthermore, I believe I will try your disk sanding method since I already own two angle grinders and just HATE to have to spend more time in the tool section at Lowes

Thanks again.

Steve

[ChrisStewart]

I seem to recall from your blog that you are using hide glue?

"If you’ve ever had a glue-up go awry or discovered an oversight during assembly, you may appreciate the ability to take everything back apart and start afresh. Apply a little hot water or steam then wait until the dismantled parts are dry again and you get a second chance at perfection."

[Steve Etter]

Yes, I did use hide glue, so theoretically I should be able to do it, but the problem here is HOW.

When I glued it together originally, it was completely flat on one side and rectangular in shape so that clamping and restricting movement was easily acheivable. Now, being carved to shape with all curved edges and arched in the center, supplying pressure and keeping things lined up is going to be extremely difficult (at best).

One technique that comes to mind though is the uses of electrical tape (bear with me for a moment on this - it's a new thought I am just now developing). If, just before attempting to glue the two halves together again, I thoroughly tape the outside of the soundboard with painters tape (to supply a surface on which to apply the electrical tape but also allow for removal without causing damage), apply my new hide glue, and then use electrical tape (well stretched) to pull the two halves together again...?

[ChrisStewart]

I am just a furniture maker but I would suggest using the body form or making a form that would allow you to clamp it.
(without putting pressure on the scroll)

It does not take a tremendous amount of pressure. Once apart the halves will need to be redressed to make a good match.

[Steve Etter]

I would suggest using the body form or making a form that would allow you to clamp it.

I am certainly on board with that, but I am still not sure how. The opening in body form I have is smaller than the soundboard and not quite the right shape since it is for forming the sides. As for a form, I would think such a form would need to match either the inner or outer surface of the soundboard. I'm not sure how I can accomplish that since they are handcarved and thus inconsistent.

Steve

[Sam Albright]

Steve, I feel for you about that split. Here is my two cents about gluing. You said you would put "significant pressure" when you glue again. And now you are thinking about trying to re-glue the original top plate. As Chris mentioned, you don't need nor want "too much" pressure. A good joint is all about fit. If you put too much pressure you can get a "starved joint". Meaning that you've squeezed all the glue out of the thing and it's weak. Many times, with Tite Bond anyway, I can do a "rubbed joint". If the parts fit, just rub them back and worth with hand pressure until you feel them start to grip then hold them there for maybe a minute to set up a little. Then, if possible, put a few claps on at low to medium pressure for good measure, and let it sit. For your top plate, it just might work if the sides fit perfectly. (I don't know, I might be crazy too, sometimes I'll start working on a good Tite Bond joint after about 3 to 5 minutes and it's pretty darn strong)
It has been mentioned about angle grinders and 36 grit flap discs. Be careful, 36 grit can really rip. I do a lot of other carving and start with 36 or 50 or even 80 then quickly shift to 120 for the actual shaping of curves and fine tuning. You can really get accurate and subtle with a 120 flap disc then try shifting to a rubber flat disc on a drill with 120. (I must admit that I haven't done an F5 scroll that way though)

[Steve Etter]

Sam - Thanks for the tip. I hadn't picked up on the starving the joint. As a kid, my dad always told me tighter was better when it came to gluing - but now that I think about it, dad had his problems with gluing, too...hmmm.

At this point, I'm really liking the idea of the electrical tape. I won't have to worry about getting clamps in the right places or damaging anything, pressure will still be there but not too strong, and I can adjust up-down-side-to-side a bit as necessary without having to worry about the clamps popping off. The key, it would seem, is to get my joint perfectly flat before I glue and then to use hide glue again.

Steve

[kestrel]

Steve –

This may be craziernell, but I’ve been worrying on this since you posted those photos, two days ago.

What if? – you cut some scrap pieces of spruce, and glue short pieces all along the seam, letting them stick out past the edges, a quarter inch – on both top and bottom of the joint – maybe an inch, or even closer apart, using hide glue. This would (should) maintain alignment of the two halves, as you pull them together. Heat and clean the present glue from both halves, before re-gluing.

You’d then have to carve away the tabs, but if you’ve already carved the entire top, you should be able to, carefully, carve and sand away the tabs, without compromising the thicknesses enough to be critical. With hot hide glue, I would think you should be able to get a decent joint this way, if you work very carefully. It may not appear as “perfect” as you would like, but may be better than trashing the soundboard.

I’d even consider using a smaller version of a spruce reinforcement strip - grain running perpendicular to the grain of the top - rather than the tabs, on the inside (such as is used on the center join of the back), and just leaving it there, only carving/sanding away the tabs on the outside of the top. It may not be considered kosher, but I doubt, seriously, that it would compromise the sonic qualities of the instrument.

BTW – I think you’re doing some really nice work on a first instrument – from scratch, no less. Bravo, and good luck.

Gene